Zerg Players: Are roaches Mandatory?

[Vonhenry]

So, I'm a Terran player, 90% of the time. Now and then I play toss and have studied their builds some.

I am about to take on Zerg...and I'm curious....is there a viable build out there that does NOT include roaches?

[Failoc]

not that I've seen. I haven't lost to a zerg player that doesn't go roaches

[Swiftaust]

There's a recent rumble along the forums that's rather small right now that suggests a baneling/crackling build will work more than roaches, esp against terrans. (where you're almost always going M&M for home defense even if you're not going M&M for assault)

Excepting in the mirror which always seems to be a reenactment of Braveheart except there's a giant roach instead of Mel Gibson, and there's a decided lack of blue face-paint.

[paradox]

you can but its much more dependent on how the opponent plays. but generally massing lings does about nothing. they are good scouts and harassment but require mass numbers to be a threat. banelings are ok but kind of situational. they are good against buildings and meh against units. against like units 1 banling can hit a couple units for about as much as 2 roach hits. the problem with this is without the lair you cant get the speed upgrade and if the opponent gets any ranged it will be more or less uesless. that and they kill themself so it seems more economical to build a roach which has a high chance of survival. point is you get more bang for your buck.

banelings only do extra dmg to light units so things like stalkers and maruaders just kind of shrug them off.

the only thing i can see banelings for it clearing walls and if you nydus the other player they can make very quick work of resource lines

[Swiftaust]

Except M&M murders a roach build.

I ran into a fairly quick roach->muta player yesterday and once I pushed into the base the 3 mauraders left managed to finish off the lair while the mutas were pounding on them.

Mauraders ruin early zerg if you ignore lings completely. Banes may not hurt them as much, but that's just to clear the marines.

[Tiamazzo]

Marauders murder early Zerg period. They say use Lings, but you just can't build enough.

[Thebeard]

In 1v1, I would say you almost have to get roaches early because you won't have enough time to tech anything else and zerglings are not going to cut it.

In 2v2 or FFA, you might have enough time to skip roaches and go straight to hydra since those games tend to have more pause before initial push but it is a gamble. I've skipped roaches completely a couple of times but usually I pick up a couple early just so I don't get rolled quick.

[Xenozergie]

I have been pretty successful with banelings and zerglings against M&M's, but I find that roaches are pretty necessary against Protoss.

As pointed out, marauders murder roaches, but if you get a couple of banelings into their midst, all the supporting marines go poof and the zerglings make short work of what's left.

Zealots have too many hitpoints and kill zerglings too easily for the same plan to work; I usually go mass roaches to hold him off while I expand and tech to hydras or muties. If he's bad, the roaches will eventually overpower him, and if he figures out he needs immortals, the roaches will usually last enough for better units to come into play.

[Evolx]

i only build roaches if i rush. otherwise i try for hydes or mutalisks, depending on what i can observe the opponent doing.


that said, i usually lose if i dont send lings and roaches to mess up their timing

[Joneleth]

I've yet to really use Roaches (or Hydralisks, Infestors and Ultralisks) in a game (1v1 or 2v2) that I've won as Zerg (not that I've played or won a real lot.)


Speedling spam is surprisingly effective, as far as I can tell, what with the Queen's spewing larvae and everything. I'll throw in some Banelings for fun before going to Corruptors and Brood Lords.

[Tehschoolbus]

When I play terran against zerg, I will build 3 racks and immediately build a reactor on one and a tech on another and leave the third open. The reactor masses marines constantly and the tech masses marauders. Then I scout out the zerg player and see if they're teching up their lings for mass lings or getting roaches. If they're getting roaches I'll build a second tech lab and mass more marauders, otherwise I go for a second reactor. I throw in the stim packs and then the sheilds if I'm going marauders, otherwise i upgrade in the opposite order to benefit my marines. Then at some point I'll transition into every other unit I need.

As a zerg player, I play differently. If I'm playing 1v1, I'll build up lings until I have about 2 dozen and then morph a few into banelings and push forward with those right through the terran wall so my lings can spill forth into their marauders and whatnot. Then I'll either supplement the lings if they were pretty successful, or start getting roaches. Roaches seem like a good filler for the zerg army because they can hold their own for a prolonged period of time, as opposed to lings which apply a lot of shock force and then quickly disperse (die). Roaches are used until I can get whatever else I need to supplement.

Toss seems to be the most troublesome for both my partner and myself if they get cannons. Cannons seem to cut through zerglings and by the time you get enough roaches to fight them they have all sorts of craziness going on. Lately we've been fairing better with one of us playing terran and the other zerg so we can accomplish different tasks with different units.

Good luck!

[Luckishot]

Even against Terran, roaches are great for drawing fire while your zerglings surround the marauders. I would say that yes, roaches are mandatory. The decision is not whether to use roaches or not, but how many roaches to use with different units like zerglings and hydras.

I have always found that equal resources of hydras, roaches and lings will beat massed hydralisks pretty easily, especially if you give your hydralisks improved range.

[Tehschoolbus]

Even against Terran, roaches are great for drawing fire while your zerglings surround the marauders. I would say that yes, roaches are mandatory. The decision is not whether to use roaches or not, but how many roaches to use with different units like zerglings and hydras.

I have always found that equal resources of hydras, roaches and lings will beat massed hydralisks pretty easily, especially if you give your hydralisks improved range.

This +1. Same goes for protoss. Each race has a heavy-hitter and a light-hitter/mass unit. Toss has the zealot and the sentry/stalker (depending on which you use... I know sentry is more of a support unit but after watching David Kim use mass sentries I'll never look at them the same lol), Terran has the marine and the marauder. Zerg has the zergling and the roach. If your opponent is building mostly marauders, get mostly lings to counter them because marauders do TERRIBLE against lings (even with stimpacks going non-stop!). You can apply this from any race's standpoint in tier1-1.5

[phoenix]

So, I'm a Terran player, 90% of the time. Now and then I play toss and have studied their builds some.

I am about to take on Zerg...and I'm curious....is there a viable build out there that does NOT include roaches?

If you want to play some zerg I would start by learning a few build orders and when to use them. Then once you get a hold of the basics you can tailor things to better fit your needs. Here are just a few to get you started:

1) 13 pool to roach
2) 13 pool to banelings
3) 12/13/14 pool hatch to spawning
4) 9 pool to speedlings

You typically want to go for the early hatch if you think you can pull it off or if you are playing a team game and don't plan on rushing (be sure to get lings for teammate support).

Since you usually play terran or toss there are some distinct differences that you need to keep in mind. Zerg is forced to hit tier 2 more than a terran or toss player due to the lack of anti air. Tier 2 also opens the door into burrow, mutas, and hydras, which you will need for the midgame. It's imperative to scout your opponent and know what he's doing or you'll end up in trouble. For example, if you go roach and you don't scout you are likely to end up with marauders slamming your face in or an early warp ray on your hatch. Good luck.

[Wingless]

In the begining I was able to crackling and baneling but to be honest no you cant anymore not that people have figured out the rushes and all that.

Terran are more susceptible to banelings then toss but either way if your banelings dont take all the marines or zealots down you need roaches to back them up. Zerglings just arent tough enough to be a bread and butter unit. they go down too quick to marines and zealots.

[Tiamazzo]

And SCVs. You forgot how fast they die to SCVs.

[Vonhenry]

1) 13 pool to roach
2) 13 pool to banelings
3) 12/13/14 pool hatch to spawning
4) 9 pool to speedlings

Thanks to all for the replies.

Could someone explain this "zerg speak" to me quickly? The "XX Pool to..."
I've seen it a lot, and because I never play zerg, I don't quite get it.

Is that - get 13 drones, then spawning pool?, then 13 more and get banelings?
Help!
(Thanks!)

[Riken]

Thanks to all for the replies.

Could someone explain this "zerg speak" to me quickly? The "XX Pool to..."
I've seen it a lot, and because I never play zerg, I don't quite get it.

Is that - get 13 drones, then spawning pool?, then 13 more and get banelings?
Help!
(Thanks!)



I've been wondering this too, I assumed it meant # of drones but I'm not exactly sure, people love their sekret game speek

[Traison]

Thanks to all for the replies.

Could someone explain this "zerg speak" to me quickly? The "XX Pool to..."
I've seen it a lot, and because I never play zerg, I don't quite get it.

Is that - get 13 drones, then spawning pool?, then 13 more and get banelings?
Help!
(Thanks!)

The number infront tells you how far to push your population counter (not sure what else to call it lol.)
So for a 13 pool to roach, you get Drones up to 10/10, build a Overlord, then more Drones to 13/18 then start building your Spawning Pool and tech to Roaches.

Edit: Fixed numbers

[Kralic]

As Zerg I rarely use roaches, though I should be using them more (not as the roach rush). I usually win 60-75% of my games against terran without roaches. Then again Im still stuck in the bronze league(have beaten a lot of silver Terrans and the odd gold one).

[Zasz]

It can be hard to know as Zerg what to go against Terran because the ramp gets walled off so early and overlords are easily dispatched until they get speed upgrade.

If you assume they're going standard M&M, banelings are your friend. Once you get good at using them, you'll wonder how you got by without the little bags of acid. You can use them at crucial choke points as burrowed landmines, or just part of your main force. Make sure to split them up into at least two groups to take out as many Marines as possible (Marines get melted by Banelings). Since his filler will get mulched, Zerglings can pick off the remaining Marauders.

You could go Mutalisks, just be aware that a good Terran will turret the hell out of his mineral line to deter any hit and runs, and Mutalisks will not stand up to M&M&M unless you have a pretty large resource/food advantage.

Infestors are also a good counter for M&M, but I haven't seen them as much so I can't really speak from personal experience.

[Blasius]

Are you talking about 1v1 or 2v2?

In 1v1, I try to skip roaches unless I need them. Unfortunately, I need them in ZvZ, I need them in ZvP against mass zealots, and I need them in ZvT against hellion/reaper harass :(

I almost always get roaches in 2v2, they are an excellent all-purpose unit for 2v2 play.

[Vonhenry]

/bumping this.

Curious as we get deeper into Beta if this is still holding true?
I seem to see less and less Roaches....but honestly - I also seem to see more and more Terran and Toss, and less Zerg in general.

Edit: And I'm really only curious about 1v1.

[paradox]

if you know they are not gonna attack you then i suppose there is no real reason... but then on the other hand if they are not rushing or building units and just teching might as well build them and rush with them anyways.

i dont know why anyone would not build any even for early base defense.

[Joeorange]

/bumping this.

Curious as we get deeper into Beta if this is still holding true?
I seem to see less and less Roaches....but honestly - I also seem to see more and more Terran and Toss, and less Zerg in general.

Edit: And I'm really only curious about 1v1.

I was reading this and was like 03/01... wha?/?

Sometimes I skip roaches. I'll do this when I am early expanding and am massing lings already for defense. I'll have enough gas to go right into mass production of Hydras with 4 extractors going. I have done this vs all three races successfully. Hell this works sometimes because everyone is so use to Zerg going Roaches, they are already building to counter it. I do however almost always build a roach warren just in case. The thing is cheap to boot and if they scout you and see the building chances are they'll start building to counter it.

Works well vs Zerg too if you are already massing lings against each other. They'll get slowed down by the roach production where as I am already countering their roaches with hydras.

[Wingless]

Nope you need the roaches up.

Ive been doing cracklings and banelings and the terran just goes marines with those little fire buggies that get+dmg to light. Ill end up on the defense the entire time while he just techs up a bit for a win. Start with banelings and zerglings but get a few roaches in your base and prepard to mass them if he doesnt build marauders. I lost two games this week because I tried to do it without roaches.

As always get lair asap and throw out either hydras or mutas. Keep banelings at least burrowed cause terran always use marines.

[Zondrail]

ZvZ - Yes, absolutely go Roaches.

ZvT - I tend to get some Roaches as a hold-out, but then go mass Hydralisks + Nydus Worm

ZvP - I don't do Roaches here. I actually tend to use Zerglings and Spore Crawlers to hold off early attacks while I go straight for Mutas. Once I have those... gg.

[Renj]

Ive been starting to play as zerg recently, and in 2v2 it seems they always rush me and I dont quite have any defences compared to when im terran. i go 13 spawning pool, get a queen and try to make lings to defend as roaches seem to come too late, and i also have to use my drones to help defend. if anyone has any suggestions on what to change up it'd be appreciated.

as for later on in game i love using mass roaches with a few infestors, works well against something like immortals+zealots or even for MC'ing a tank behind a wall. i've actually never seen any other zerg players using infestors but i think they're great :s

[Starcraft]

So, I'm a Terran player, 90% of the time. Now and then I play toss and have studied their builds some.

I am about to take on Zerg...and I'm curious....is there a viable build out there that does NOT include roaches?

Sometimes I skip roaches and go straight to hydralisks, but usually I build a few roaches for early defense. If I don't have the resources for additional hydralisks later in the game, I'll build roaches and lings.

The truth is, it's best to have a good mix of everything. Because I can never get as much vespene as I can get of minerals, I always end up with a ton of lings and a few roaches to augment my hydralisk force. It's great because the lings either end up being cheap cannon fodder, or they tear their enemies to shreds. Very handy against tanks and colossi.

[Dirkydu]

It really depends on your opponent and what they're doing. This is like asking a Protoss player if they build Stalkers. Some games they will and some games they won't.

Mass Roaches might work initially against newer players, but once you're playing people who know what they're doing you're throwing away your end game in hope of a quick early-mid win. Personally, I go mass Lings directly into Mutas 80% of the time and it works just fine.

Roaches are a good tank and a great ground supplement to lots of strategies but they shouldn't be the only unit in your army.

[Dakarian]

Oddly enough, I've best found my rhythm WITHOUT a heavy roach use.

ZvT to me is a hydra game. You expand early, and keep tabs on the terran for when they come out. If you're worried about a rush, you'll want roaches, but unless there's a big risk of that (and terran so want their maraders early on) you can expand and then aim for the hydras.

It's wild. Once I started pumping hydras, I've seen them tear apart marine/marad if the medi isn't around. I don't believe I'm fighting cost equally but that's WHY you expand in the first place. With the second base's gas, you can pump them out almost as well as the old SC1 days and they work SO MUCH better now without explosive damage. Also, they do well against maraders since they are light (the armored aspect is why roaches die to maraders). From there you contain, grab banelings for when the medi comes in and use changelings (seriously, if you aren't using this then Start! Doesn't matter if the enemy spot it fast, it's still as good recon as you'll get) and upgraded overlords to start the worm pressure. If they were big on the rush for M&M&M you'll get that worm in that base well enough to do hit and runs to make them go defensive.

ZvZ roaches are mandatory but temporary since staying too long on roaches makes you suffer against mutas, but if you can't hold back the enemy roach force soon enough you'll never make it (had one game just now where a big roach force slipped into my base JUST as I had 6 mutas brewing. If they were 20 seconds slow on that push or if I made a few more roaches I would've won)

ZvP I'm still pondering it. Roaches are great against zealots, but the sentry ruins them too easily. It might be just a matter of needing a mixed force overall, especially since the toss mixes their force in the first place.


Roaches are wonderful, and great for abusing players who aren't preparing for it. Unless you plan on NOT fighting in the early game, though, plan on making some of them, but no, they do NOT have to be your 'main force'.

[Morpheis]

In response to the OP - Yes.

I've found that getting at least 6-8 Roaches early to be the best general course of action. You can count on Protoss and Terran building the Mauraders/Immortals to counter them, but it lets you survive a Marines/Zealot rush or rush yourself. if you are up against Zerg and you see an early pool then it's a safe bet they are going to rush you in which case you need to counter with lings yourself and tech to Roach quickly as they murder lings.

I've tried several times to go with different Strats that don't involve roaches but at this point they are just too much of an all around good unit to pass up most of the time.

[Falryx]

I didnt read everything here, but to answer the origional poster, I barely ever use roaches except in 2v2, I always do lings to harass initially then upgrade carapace -> speed boost > and attack upgrade which make them incredibly dangerous little critters to keep throwing at your opponent, before i played with the upgrades i thought lings were just pure trash, so I can see why lots of people would just go roaches

[Joeorange]

Seems most people are missing the point. The question isn't "Should I be using Roaches?" it is "Are they Mandatory?"

Read fellas read.

[Renj]

ZvP I'm still pondering it. Roaches are great against zealots, but the sentry ruins them too easily. It might be just a matter of needing a mixed force overall, especially since the toss mixes their force in the first place.

Mind control the sentry with infestor imo :P

[Fuse]

Roaches are mandatory. That is why everyone says they are OP.

The problem is that they are not necessarily OP...but they are the only thing that zerg has thats of any use in t1. Compound that with the fact that 99% of the games that I have played are rushes (both 1v1 and 2v2), zerg ends up making alot of roaches to hold off the rush. This delays getting mutas/hydras for a bit and since games usually end in 6-10 minutes a zerg player rarely gets to the point where hydra/muta comes into play.

Thats my opinion atleast.

I play gold 1v1 and plat 2v2. Doesn't mean I'm any good...but just to give a reference.

FYI - Terran destroys me basically every time in 1v1.

Stim pack MMM + siege tanks = dead zerg unless you can get brood lords but thats really hard to get while 2x50 mineral marines (stimpacked) can take out your hydra that is 100m 50gas.

[Dakarian]

Less long winded version of my answer:

They are mandatory unless you you know you won't be facing an early-game attack. If you know you can tech or expand without being heavily hit then you can skip the roach alltogether.

Tends to happen most during ZvT, almost impossible in ZvZ, and is pretty darn risky for ZvP.

Note that it's less about the power of the roach and more that you need something to help out the lings in early game.

[Redscare]

you can but its much more dependent on how the opponent plays. but generally massing lings does about nothing. they are good scouts and harassment but require mass numbers to be a threat. banelings are ok but kind of situational. they are good against buildings and meh against units. against like units 1 banling can hit a couple units for about as much as 2 roach hits. the problem with this is without the lair you cant get the speed upgrade and if the opponent gets any ranged it will be more or less uesless. that and they kill themself so it seems more economical to build a roach which has a high chance of survival. point is you get more bang for your buck.

banelings only do extra dmg to light units so things like stalkers and maruaders just kind of shrug them off.

the only thing i can see banelings for it clearing walls and if you nydus the other player they can make very quick work of resource lines

Banelings oneshot marines and that is a splash attack. It is a good cheap way to counter medivacs and I think they also do a decent amount of damage against lots of zealots.

[Dirkydu]

Seems most people are missing the point. The question isn't "Should I be using Roaches?" it is "Are they Mandatory?"

Read fellas read.

The OP is asking a pointed question that only has a vague answer.

Simply, SC2 is a game of hard counters. Roaches are the only T1 Zerg unit with added damage against armored units. Of course they're mandatory... if the other guy has a bunch of armored units. So yes, Roaches are a mandatory part of the Zerg race as a T1 armored counter.

Roaches are not, however, mandatory for every single game nor are early game rushes consisting of solely Roaches necessary.

Edit: Clarity.

[Lazz]

I'm a high-ranked Gold league player, and rarely if ever use Roaches against Terran - and mostly win. Most of my losses are ZvZ where I certainly make Roaches, but can't seem to manage everything at once.

[Nayami]

ZvZ - roach is a must. Sorry.

ZvT - I prefer ling / bane / muta or hydra

ZvP - Ling / bane / muta

Roach seems to mostly be a ZvZ tool as they completely stomp zerglings and thus both players push for early roach. If one player does not push for early roach and tried to tech or mass lings, they suffer an early defeat. It's just the nature of a mirror match.

[leland]

So, I'm a Terran player, 90% of the time. Now and then I play toss and have studied their builds some.

I am about to take on Zerg...and I'm curious....is there a viable build out there that does NOT include roaches?

Yes. I hardly use roaches anymore because someone sees Zerg and goes "OMG THEY ARE GOING TO MASS ROACHES A;SLJFKDA;SBFL;KAJBSDFKJ!!!!"

To which they start building air units.

Now, in platinum 1v1 I use them when I see what the other player is going for. I've never been a player to mass anything.

[Rivfader]

Agaisnt T and P I like to use Roaches with a meat shield of zerglings. They both work together real well. Send in the zerglings and finish them with your roaches. Tech to mutas and hyds.

[Toxia]

i havnt yet used roaches and i havnt lost to anyone who masses roaches. lings and hydros all the way

[Pillage]

I've been having fair success with speedlings and Mutas. Very good for moving from place to place