Terran Reavers jumping cliffs.

[Kosmos]

This seems a little overpowered since they are ranged units and you can rush an opponents workers quick with them with ease. Anyone else feel that they are a tad op atm?

[Yaji]

I've been hearing that a lot, but will say that I have failed countless times in performing a reaper rush. Protoss seem to have the hardest time preventing the rush due to their zealots. But maybe that keeps protoss users from overusing zealots. Technically, the base Terran unit (the marines) are pretty useless against the base Protoss unit and players have just gotten really good at quickly surpassing that obstacle.

Maybe the reapers aren't overpowered, but rather the drones/scv's/probes have a few too few hit points. If it took one more shot to kill the probes, the rush would probably be a lot less effective.

[Warlocksol]

The fact that they can ignore the anti-rush obstacles on the novice maps seems like a problem to me. Granted not everyone is going to be playing on those, but you gotta cut the newbies *some* slack. :P

[Yaji]

That is a very valid point, however, I have found it's pretty hard to utilize some of the open ground in most of the anti-rush maps. They tend to only have like 1 jump point, so if the newbie sits like 5 guys next to it, the reapers are useless.

[Theweir]

A 10 or 15 sec CD on the rocket pack might be a good thing to make it a little more balanced early game. Could even add an upgrade for it to remove/lower the CD since I don't think the bitchy strat people use with them is as effective beyond the early rush period.

[Hurtlock]

A 10 or 15 sec CD on the rocket pack might be a good thing to make it a little more balanced early game. Could even add an upgrade for it to remove/lower the CD since I don't think the bitchy strat people use with them is as effective beyond the early rush period.

CD would work or upgrade the Protss stalker has a blink CD

[Wyndrunner]

The only problem I still have with Reaver rushes is when I go quick expand (I'm Zerg). I have enough units to take down their reavers but if they're smart about it, they split up their forces, attack one spot, wait for my units to come defend then the other half go to the expansion until my units catch up. Roaches are just too slow for this without the upgrade.

[Mcwill]

Right now the most popular idea for reapers is to make the jump pack ability an upgrade, rather than starting with it. This way it would need to be researched, making it less of a rushing unit.

[jimmy]

I think once you get used to them and counter them they won't be as big of an issue. If you're fast expanding - you took the risk and gambled on less units / defense now for more resources in the long run, and lost. Your scout should have picked up on the barracks+tech labs, and a few Roaches/Stalkers stops a Reaper rush cold. If the enemy is pumping out Reapers, it's bloody stupid to decided to just expand and have no defense against them. Also, know your attack points; on several of the maps, Reapers have only one or two places they can jump up into your base from (granted, on a map like Oasis, this can be directly into your mineral line). Plant your zealots/zerglings there, and cackle with glee as the reapers get slaughtered (note - don't try to use zealots or zerglings against Reapers as a general rule, Reapers move faster and deal extra damage to them. They only work if they're there waiting for them and the Reapers jump right into them).

EDIT: I just wanted to mention, for any Zerg players who feel they have to fast expand - learn and love your Queen. You don't need to expand early when you can pump out those extra units. I'm not saying don't expand, just don't expand so early you don't even have your pool up yet.

[Jared]

Right now the most popular idea for reapers is to make the jump pack ability an upgrade, rather than starting with it. This way it would need to be researched, making it less of a rushing unit.

Was there a poll I missed regarding ways to 'fix' the reaper? I just don't see how you can state with authority that making the jumppack an upgrade is the 'most popular idea'.

[Bibdy]

Was there a poll I missed regarding ways to 'fix' the reaper? I just don't see how you can state with authority that making the jumppack an upgrade is the 'most popular idea'.

No, its just one he likes and he thinks its how they should be balanced, so he's trying to get more support that way.

Reapers are fine. Building damage is maybe a little high, but leave your flank exposed and defenseless when a Terran player is in the game and you deserve what you get. ANTICIPATE this stuff. Leave a couple of Stalkers in your base. Those Reapers are damn-near useless with a little common sense. And if he doesn't make Reapers? Well then you've got a couple of Stalkers you can field along with your Zealots to gun down those Marauders before they do too much damage.

Diversify your army and quit complaining.

[ninja]

I think the bldng damage is def a little high.

As fun as it is for me to Reap rush, I must admit that TvT or TvP, I have yet to be stopped when I use this strategy. This is maybe 10 or 12 games of Reap rushing, and is explicitly bc of decapitating them by removing their +1 pylon or depot.

Vs Zerg it has been stopped bc of Larvae pump -> roaches, but vs T or P I can outrun their Marines and take out 1 supply depot or pylon. Then they can't make any more units than they already have. By the time the next 2 or 4 reapers get there, I have 6 or 8 reapers and can easily hit either side of their base on and off, picking off either Depots, Pylons, Tier1 units, or miners. They always leave the game @ this point bc they can't *make* anything.

If they *do* stay in the game, I can do this for 2 or 3 minutes until I show up with a good amount of Marauders @ their entrance.

Leave a couple of Stalkers in your base

You can show up with 2 reapers before they get to this point. Doesn't take long to take out the pylon that supports the Gateway.

[Yaji]

Was there a poll I missed regarding ways to 'fix' the reaper? I just don't see how you can state with authority that making the jumppack an upgrade is the 'most popular idea'.

This thread has actually been hovering around alot on the forums on how to 'fix' the reapers, and yes, that upgrade idea has been a pretty popular solution.

I disagree with it, though as it would totally nerf them. I use them because they're cheap and fast. If I fail to pop someone, I'll lay them somewhere for awhile and try again, but after the initial attack, if reapers dont work, they usually dont ever work.

And they are totally useless against a queen.. One queen can take out 5 or 6 reapers.

[Yaji]

Also, again, I state, I feel that when I am making reapers, I am taking a gamble, either they work and I win in 10 minutes, or they dont and I end up with no way to defend myself... I usually try the reaper strategy if I want to try to work on my micromanagement skills and want to get a few quick games in to modify my ladder score.

[Namhcir]

This seems a little overpowered since they are ranged units and you can rush an opponents workers quick with them with ease. Anyone else feel that they are a tad op atm?

they are only good vs. people who arent that good, and zerg who fast expand right at the start because it allows the reapers to have free run at the queen, and if u kill the queen the game is basically over..

but i find them extremely useless against any good toss or terran, its way too easy to defend considering how low their hp is.. however if all u make is zerglings/marines/zealots by the time they havfe reapers in ur base you deserve to lose...

[Tresleches]

This thread has actually been hovering around alot on the forums on how to 'fix' the reapers, and yes, that upgrade idea has been a pretty popular solution.

I disagree with it, though as it would totally nerf them. I use them because they're cheap and fast. If I fail to pop someone, I'll lay them somewhere for awhile and try again, but after the initial attack, if reapers dont work, they usually dont ever work.

And they are totally useless against a queen.. One queen can take out 5 or 6 reapers.

I'm with you as a Zerg player. Nerfing the reaper's jump packs will really make them worthless. Like you said they are a gamble. It can work really nice if someone is playing a quick expansion game, but if you plan for a reaper rush you can counter them just fine. I've noticed quite a few players out there that do not make any base defenses whatsoever. A couple of cannons placed in the right spots as Protoss can solve a reaper rush too.

[Namhcir]

This thread has actually been hovering around alot on the forums on how to 'fix' the reapers, and yes, that upgrade idea has been a pretty popular solution.

I disagree with it, though as it would totally nerf them. I use them because they're cheap and fast. If I fail to pop someone, I'll lay them somewhere for awhile and try again, but after the initial attack, if reapers dont work, they usually dont ever work.

And they are totally useless against a queen.. One queen can take out 5 or 6 reapers.

they are useless vs. a queen normally unless you fast expand, then they can do some serious damage as there is usually no roaches to do anything

[Tresleches]

I also have noticed a lack of diversity in people's units. It's the reason people are saying nerf roaches. Yes my roaches are going to destroy your group of marines if that's all you built. Try having a few other units in there to help counter things. It's not just paper/rock/scissors when it comes to this game. It's diversity and knowing how to attack the other person with the units.

[Bibdy]

You can show up with 2 reapers before they get to this point. Doesn't take long to take out the pylon that supports the Gateway.


Bullshit. It takes Refineries, a Barracks, a Techlab, then fielding a bunch of Reapers one by one from that Barracks.

The Protoss counter requires Assimilators, Gateway(s), a Cybernetics Core and fielding Stalkers one by one, and you don't have to run those units across the map. Plus, you have Chrono Boost.

People just keep piling out the Zealots until they have like 6-10 of the things, then piss and moan when they got stomped by a group of Reapers that just 'came outta nowhere!'

[Kosmos]

The amount of resources it costs protoss to get that far vs. terran is about 45 seconds. Plenty of time to get the 2 things across the map which is what he stated.

[Yaji]

they are useless vs. a queen normally unless you fast expand, then they can do some serious damage as there is usually no roaches to do anything

Yeah, it is kind of hard to get a queen out before someone gets reapers, I usually have 3 reapers by the 4 minute mark (I'm estimating).

When I reaper rush, i do:

9 scv
1 supply depot (scv continues during the whole duration)
1 barracks with second scv building
1 vesp gas while the barracks builds
align 3 guys to vesp
1 marine while i get 50 vesp
3 reapers

I don't think you can make them any faster at a newbie status.. By that time, if I can get to your base quickly, most people usually have 4-8 zealots, 6-10 marines, or 8-12 zerglings which are useless if you run away and let me pull you one by one to me, but if you charge the reapers to the edge of the base and hang out there with 2 or 3 guys, you can keep them out, because they take a second to land and recover for attack and you really only need to hit them once or twice with a few guys to pop them.

[Bibdy]

The amount of resources it costs protoss to get that far vs. terran is about 45 seconds. Plenty of time to get the 2 things across the map which is what he stated.

That's not true at all. That's assuming the Protoss goes to gas insanely early. He doesn't need gas until the Cyber Core is up, whereas the Terran needs gas just to get up his Tech Lab, requiring earlier gas and therefore less minerals. The gap isn't anywhere near that big.

In other words, the Terran needs 50 gas when his Barracks is done (100 if he's making 2) and then another 50 per unit when the Tech Lab is done. The Protoss can wait to start up his gas and have 100 ready when the CC is done and pump out 2 Stalkers simultaneously, and quickly, with Chrono Boost.

[Kosmos]

My timings were for 2 reapers across the map vs. 1 stalker built complete.

[Kralic]

My guess as the Beta goes on reapers will not "surprise" people as much and be pretty much useless in the capcity we have seen them being used. It will be fun for the first while after release "surprising" people with this tactic.

[Bibdy]

My timings were for 2 reapers across the map vs. 1 stalker built complete.

If you're just going to count build times, in order of creation, the terran makes

Barracks (65) + Tech Lab (30) + Reaper (30) + Reaper (30) = 155

The Protoss goes

Pylon (25) + Gateway (50) + Cyber Core (50) + Stalker (42) = 167

And none of that counts the rate of gaining minerals. Just 1 worker, with infinite resources at his disposal, which isn't how it works in reality. The Terran has to slow down his mineral production to get enough gas for that Tech Lab within those 65 seconds, whereas the Protoss can pretty much pile on the minerals for longer and have no break in that chain. A Protoss can keep that chain going and even make another Gateway on the side, pumping out 2 Stalkers in a similar amount of time. Whereas the Terran has to worry about gas a lot more if he's going to pump out a threatening number of Reapers.

[Tribe]

Well, this is the Beta. If there is a time to look at and change a unit, then it is now.

I play as Zerg, and personally I have not had problems with the Reapers. I have had a Terrian enter my base with them to move my few defending units to that side of the base only to enter the undefended side with a second group. This can be dangerous, but I usually build a couple towers early vs Terrian and fewer early units (due to them usually turtling up behind a chokepoint). The static defenses limit the Reapers ability to move around and attach from other sides.

With that said, THERE IS A PROBLEM with everyone HAVING TO BUILD/PLAY a particular way EVERYTIME THEY PLAY AGAINST TERRIAN. That early, you dont know if they are building Reapers or not, but the threat of Reapers forces other players to build against them in the critical early stages of the game. Just by reading the responces of this thread, Terrian players have said "Dont expo, build UNIT A, etc". But the problem with that is the changes the Reaper Threat makes to the early game mechanic while the player is setting up their economy and the foundation for their strategy.

[Kosmos]

Tribe you hit the money on the spot. If you build the counter to the reaper is the problem. You have to expect it and it effects your whole economy. 2v2 i've fought 2 teams of terran reapers and that's just not a win ever going to happen. no matter how you defend.

[Kralic]

Samething can be said about alot of units in this game, oh I am playing a zerg player better prep for roaches. I never have issues with roaches because I build to counter them anyway.

[Hoobladgn]

Those little fire buggies are good at taking reapers out, and at 100min a pop they're worth the cost for like 4-6 of them while you pop our marines/marauders and prepare for mid-late game.

They move fast, and they damage much of the group because of their area damage. I've yet to have a reaper rush win against those little suckers, though I don't use them for anything else.

Hellions? Aye, that's what they're called. I prefer fire buggies.

[Bibdy]

Tribe you hit the money on the spot. If you build the counter to the reaper is the problem. You have to expect it and it effects your whole economy. 2v2 i've fought 2 teams of terran reapers and that's just not a win ever going to happen. no matter how you defend.

You should be doing this kind of stuff anyway. That's the point of the game. You can't just throw in some random build order against a certain race and expect to do well. Like building tons of Zealots against a Zerg. Are you out of your godamned mind? He's just going to make Roaches and blitz you to absolute death with their superior move speed and range. If you make Stalkers, you'll tear them up while they're busy shooting Zealots, so he has to make Zerglings to hold the Zealots back, or gun straight for hte Stalkers to protect his Roaches, at which point the Protoss guy field his Sentries to hold them back or protect from the ranged fire and on and on and back and forth.

The point is to make a diversified army and combine them into a strong force. Reacting, in advance, to a list of your opponent's potential strategies is the entire POINT of strategy games. And its not like making 2 Stalkers is destroying your economy. Its eliminating your ability to field a buttload of Zealots, sure, but not your economy. Its not like those Stalkers are totally useless if there aren't any Reapers to fight. On the other hand, Reapers are pretty much useless without a base or workers to blow up.

[Zasz]

The only problem I still have with Reaver rushes is when I go quick expand (I'm Zerg). I have enough units to take down their reavers but if they're smart about it, they split up their forces, attack one spot, wait for my units to come defend then the other half go to the expansion until my units catch up. Roaches are just too slow for this without the upgrade.

Sounds like you got countered. If you fast expand against a Terran going Reapers you sealed your own fate. If you want to get into the issue of Zerg NEEDING to fast expand to be viable in 1v1, that's another balance question entirely.

The only thing that need to be changed about Reapers are their damage vs buildings. Either put a 10s cooldown on that attack, or make it a t2 upgrade. There's no reason why a quick worker harassing unit should be able to take down a Hatchery/Nexus in 8 seconds.

[Tribe]

You should be doing this kind of stuff anyway. That's the point of the game. You can't just throw in some random build order against a certain race and expect to do well. Like building tons of Zealots against a Zerg. Are you out of your godamned mind? He's just going to make Roaches and blitz you to absolute death with their superior move speed and range. If you make Stalkers, you'll tear them up while they're busy shooting Zealots, so he has to make Zerglings to hold the Zealots back, or gun straight for hte Stalkers to protect his Roaches, at which point the Protoss guy field his Sentries to hold them back or protect from the ranged fire and on and on and back and forth.

The point is to make a diversified army and combine them into a strong force. Reacting, in advance, to a list of your opponent's potential strategies is the entire POINT of strategy games. And its not like making 2 Stalkers is destroying your economy. Its eliminating your ability to field a buttload of Zealots, sure, but not your economy. Its not like those Stalkers are totally useless if there aren't any Reapers to fight. On the other hand, Reapers are pretty much useless without a base or workers to blow up.

Ok, well the point is... Against a Terrian player, you HAVE to build to Defend against Reavers. The Terrian player builds however he likes. This prevents YOU from building your early strategy or build. The Terrian is free the Bunker, Reaver, Tech, etc, but all other players vs the terrian MUST build to STOP REAVERS. This is bad in the early game. It forces a level of control over the gameplay that is beyond the rock/paper cliche.

I'll use Warcraft 3 TFT as an example. As a Undead player vs an Orc player, I would have to build to protect my base against a Blademaster, no matter what strat or hero choice the orc would eventually use. No matter what, from the start of the game until the early game was over, I would have to build to stop the Blademaster instead of building for one of my game strats. There was no way of knowing if the Orc player was going to choose a different hero or not, so I was FORCED to build against it.

Reapers are the same. As a Terrian against say... a Zerg, you have many options of how to build early to defend or attack the Zerg. The Protoss and the Zerg players have no choice but to build to defeat an early game Reaper rush. This delays the other players from reaching their real strats, which gives a "phanton advantage" th all Terrian players. An advantage not by skill, terrain, strats, units, economy, etc.

[Kameelyan]

it sounds to me like there isn't enough early scouting going on

[Bibdy]

Ok, well the point is... Against a Terrian player, you HAVE to build to Defend against Reavers. The Terrian player builds however he likes. This prevents YOU from building your early strategy or build. The Terrian is free the Bunker, Reaver, Tech, etc, but all other players vs the terrian MUST build to STOP REAVERS. This is bad in the early game. It forces a level of control over the gameplay that is beyond the rock/paper cliche.

I'll use Warcraft 3 TFT as an example. As a Undead player vs an Orc player, I would have to build to protect my base against a Blademaster, no matter what strat or hero choice the orc would eventually use. No matter what, from the start of the game until the early game was over, I would have to build to stop the Blademaster instead of building for one of my game strats. There was no way of knowing if the Orc player was going to choose a different hero or not, so I was FORCED to build against it.

Reapers are the same. As a Terrian against say... a Zerg, you have many options of how to build early to defend or attack the Zerg. The Protoss and the Zerg players have no choice but to build to defeat an early game Reaper rush. This delays the other players from reaching their real strats, which gives a "phanton advantage" th all Terrian players. An advantage not by skill, terrain, strats, units, economy, etc.

And? You think the Terran player isn't taking a huge gamble? If you make Roaches or Stalkers, he's going to need Marauders, if not, you could just walk right over his meager units once you counter his Reaper rush. If you're not sending a Drone, Probe or SCV at your opponent early in the game to see what he's doing, then DO IT! If you see he's building multiple barracks and he's not collecting gas, then prepare for a Marine invasion. If you see Refineries and early gas, then prepare for Reapers. If no Reapers show up, it was probably just Marauders. Either way, those Stalkers are going to help you push them back.

If the Terran looks at your base and sees an early Cyber Core going up, he's going to think you're going Stalkers to counter a Reaper rush, so he won't bother going for Reapers. You could just be going Sentries, but he doesn't know that.

[Tribe]

well, against a Terrian, who blocks a choke point, NO, there isnt. But the Terrian has the choke blocked before he has the tech lab, so I couldnt see it coming anyway.
Send the Overlord? awsome way to stop production when 1 marine kills it.
Build a horde of Zerglings and send then up to the blocked choke point? Awesome again, then I'm behind on unit count/tech.
Make Banelings and crash through the choke to have a look inside the base? This takes a lot of gas and tech, which you're now forgetting the issue is to Stop Reapers or not to stop Reapers. The reapers come by the time I can make Banelings.


Ok, I'll just forget you said that about not scouting, because that was kind'a dumb to say. You cant effectively scout a Terrian as a Zerg until Tier 2. Reapers come 4 minutes into the game. They come when the Zerg player has nothing but 12 Zerglings, or if they teched, then 3-6 Roaches.

You cant see the Reapers coming. You just have to build to stop them, and then go on with building your real strat - Phantom Advantage to all Terrian Players.

[Yaji]

Sounds like you got countered. If you fast expand against a Terran going Reapers you sealed your own fate. If you want to get into the issue of Zerg NEEDING to fast expand to be viable in 1v1, that's another balance question entirely.

The only thing that need to be changed about Reapers are their damage vs buildings. Either put a 10s cooldown on that attack, or make it a t2 upgrade. There's no reason why a quick worker harassing unit should be able to take down a Hatchery/Nexus in 8 seconds.

hehe... +1

Even I, the terran fan have to admit that seems damn cheap. The fact that I can blow up a pylon with 4 reapers before the enemy even gets a chance to click on his defending units is kind of crappy. I dont know what to do, even if it's just reducing the strength of the shot, the reapers being able to absolutely eviscerate buildings feels pretty cheap.. But oh how I love it.

[Antpile]

And they are totally useless against a queen.. One queen can take out 5 or 6 reapers.

This is not true. She might win vs 4, but 5 or 6 will definitely kill her.