How do I beat M&M?

[Engrish]

Self explanatory. While each race has their counter for "armored units" (except Zerg) I only seem to feel hopeless when I face a good terran player building the standard M&M build that EVERY TERRAN does (to be understood not saying terrans shouldn't).

I have tried beating this build several times and sometimes I am successful but IMO a good terran player with a M&M build can and will always beat a good zerg player with R&L build (even if they have banelings)!

How do you successfully counter this? Keep in mind that out producing your opponents M&M with your R&L is usually out of the question since a good terran techs to banshees fast.

Please, any tips are greatly appreciated!!

Thanks!

[Pdc]

I've only played 20 games, but as a mostly-terran player so far, my biggest fear with M&M is that I'll get roached before I get Medivac + Stim (in the early game) and mutalisks (in the later game)

In general, when I have a mental block against a certain build, I just start playing it myself, get pwned, and say "oh, so that's what I can do" :)

[Joey]

You need to apply constant pressure to their base before they simple counter you and overwhelm.

I really think the trick to beating ZvT as Z is constant pressure so the Terran can't overproduce you.

[paradox]

me and my friend have been trying to figure this out.(he plays toss) turns out the easiest way is to rush colossi (with zealot meatshield of course). it kind of depends on how fast they push but if they wait long enough for you to get a colossi some zealots and sentry its pretty much gg cause the colossi will eat through them.

as zerg i have yet to really find anything. the lack of aoe attacking units makes it kind of hard so mutas? but then again you should be dead by the time you can pull those out

[Engrish]

Pressure I assume would be a usable strategy, but easier said then done since all 1v1 maps now have ramps, and with terran getting marauders fast and a blockaded ramp its hard to get in there before a nydus canal (which unfortunately costs 200min).

[Killstorm]

I second this! My terran friend tells me the counter to M&M's for zerg is ling/baneling. So the other day I was against a terran, scouted his build early, built about 40 zerglings, 10 banelings, got speed on both. Then when he finally pushed out, i managed to kill a majority of his army, however after all my suiciding banelings, and after my lings died, he ended up with about 6 units left, which i had nothing left to finish them off with. He continued to bring in reinforcements while i tried to pump out additional units but theres no way 12 lings can take on a small M&M group, even if it is only 6 units.

To balance the lack of splash for zerg, i think the proper fix would be to slightly increase the splash radius of banelings. It is only fair since you lose the unit afterwards. Or give us lurkers back!!

[Joey]

banelings dont need more of a radius.

[Rivalry]

I second this! My terran friend tells me the counter to M&M's for zerg is ling/baneling. So the other day I was against a terran, scouted his build early, built about 40 zerglings, 10 banelings, got speed on both. Then when he finally pushed out, i managed to kill a majority of his army, however after all my suiciding banelings, and after my lings died, he ended up with about 6 units left, which i had nothing left to finish them off with. He continued to bring in reinforcements while i tried to pump out additional units but theres no way 12 lings can take on a small M&M group, even if it is only 6 units.

To balance the lack of splash for zerg, i think the proper fix would be to slightly increase the splash radius of banelings. It is only fair since you lose the unit afterwards. Or give us lurkers back!!

eh 2 banelings can kill a HUGE number of marines (like 20), it's all about the placement. If you make a huge ball of banelings and just try to ram them in to your opponent then you're probably going to just end up trading armies or worse. On the other hand If you plant them like manual mine fields with just a few in key locations you basically force you're opponent to get a raven before pushing out.

[Aurum]

2 Infestors > 100 supply of MMM.

[Namhcir]

Self explanatory. While each race has their counter for "armored units" (except Zerg) I only seem to feel hopeless when I face a good terran player building the standard M&M build that EVERY TERRAN does (to be understood not saying terrans shouldn't).

I have tried beating this build several times and sometimes I am successful but IMO a good terran player with a M&M build can and will always beat a good zerg player with R&L build (even if they have banelings)!

How do you successfully counter this? Keep in mind that out producing your opponents M&M with your R&L is usually out of the question since a good terran techs to banshees fast.

Please, any tips are greatly appreciated!!

Thanks!

what race are you?

Zerglings/banelings/hydras make short work of any infantry terrans have, their only hope of stopping it is basically having equal econ as you, however if they get some thors out this no longer works.. also infestors are amazing, ONLY if your micro is good. if they leave even 1 hole where u can ge tpast marauders to the marines your banelings should kill every single marine literally, and marauders suck ass vs. hydras and zerglings

As toss 1 colossus basically rapes em, with micro theyll take forever to kill ur colossus and the stalkers will take over by the time they finally do, if u lose ur colossus early, its entirely ur fault as there is no pathing with it and its easy to not lose em.. you have a short window to beat this tho, cause if they get cloaked banshees and M&M its really tough to beat cause banshees decimate Colossus and the m&m if not many died will rape ur stalkers

[Kifire]

eh 2 banelings can kill a HUGE number of marines (like 20), it's all about the placement. If you make a huge ball of banelings and just try to ram them in to your opponent then you're probably going to just end up trading armies or worse. On the other hand If you plant them like manual mine fields with just a few in key locations you basically force you're opponent to get a raven before pushing out.

works so well, its like the new vulture mines but on the wrong race lol...

[Mut]

I've conquered many a terran players by going DTs then Void Rays right after.

m&m beats void rays out of the box, so do you win because they dont have a tower near their choke?

[Namhcir]

m&m beats void rays out of the box, so do you win because they dont have a tower near their choke?

void rays are much better at harassing buildings, seriously try it, u can harass back of their base killing a command center in 15 seconds with just 2, as soon as they go to stop u, run ur main force in and kill their supply depot block, this prevents them from building any new units for a good while amnd just keep up the dual harass and they cant build for a while so you should be able to overwhelm slowly, of course this is very counterable but if you do catch someone off guard its very very easy to win if you can micro at least somewhat decently.

[phoenix]

Ling and baneling for zerg against M&M. Late game it is even more effective. In theory you could get brood lords but I have never needed this. I miss the lurkers but I can make these banelings work.

[Nightmare]

As was previously mentioned, Infestors work very well against M&M

[Spacefish]

Yep, my MM combo usually falls apart to a couple infestors

[Rebelfist]

colossus + zealots w/charge

[Vox]

The problem is I need a tier-3 unit to beat tier-1/ tier-1.5 units.

Seriously, there is a reason every single terran is going M&M 90% of the time. It's because reactor pumped marines and mauraders are stupidly versatile.

Edit: Against protoss at least, I can't speak for zerg players.

[Vox]

colossus + zealots w/charge

That is a stupid amount of resources dedicated to take out units the terran can mass produce 2-3 minutes into the game.

[Themanofwick]

Infestors are very powerful against M and M (particularly as their aoe damage cannot be healed as well as single target by medivacs) - intelligently placed Banelings are often a good time-buying tactic if you have burrow as well.

Really though, nothing tools my M and M like infestors - they straight up force me to transition strategies.

[Kranden]

Sneak up on them with 10 Dark Templars. LET THE REAPING BEGIN!

[Wingless]

I dont have much trouble with any of the Ms get banelings zerglings and roaches going asap. Banelings on the marines and I can usually get roaches to do pretty well against marauders. You need to get burrow asap and move while burrowed soon after.

More then once Ive banelinged the blocked ramp and sent a few lings as a distraction while I sent my roaches under to the mineral line. Dont be afraid to pop 12 roaches under for a quick recharge. Make sure you have a lair up which you should for burrow and move while burrowed. you need to expand whenever you can. dont be afraid to put a second hatchery in your main base for extra production. When youve been fighting for 60 secs and you come back to make units your queen should have enough to larva both of them. Get a spire for good measure and try to scount dont let the terran go air without being ready for it.

[Ayumi]

Colossi and Zealots work well like others have said before me, however recently I been playing with High Templar and once upgraded they annihilate anything that walks. Of course they need to be backed up properly but they can turn the tide quickly in battle.

[Warlo]

Colossi and Zealots work well like others have said before me, however recently I been playing with High Templar and once upgraded they annihilate anything that walks. Of course they need to be backed up properly but they can turn the tide quickly in battle.


Yep. Many a time. I have let my dark templar sit in my defense with a few zealots and stalkers. Terran charges in thinking they will have the go of the place and all of the sudden their m&m are dropping like crazy... "Sh*t! there are templar!"

Love that moment. as said before, just make sure you back them up properly

[Acosnil]

Use roaches only as a counter to large numbers of marines.

Baneling traps.

Zerglings.

[Rebelfist]

Problem with DT's: comsat sweep = lots of wasted min/gas. A good terran will probably see your shrine and know that they are coming...

[Blasius]

T1: use speedlings + speed banelings (more marines = more banelings, more marauders = more zerglings)
T2: infestors
T3: brood lords, ultralisks

[Nick]

Ask Smarties.

[Essentia]

As a Protoss, how do you deal with M&M?

Like what build order, early gas, only 1 gateway then tech. or 2 gate?

Plz a specific strat would be helpful.

[Rebelfist]

I'm not that great at the game. But I go one gate, cybernetics core, then another gate (while researching warp gate), and then tech to colossi and charge w/zealots while producing more zealots with the warp gates.

[Xenozergie]

To all the Zerg players suggesting infestors, do you just spam fungal growth? The damage and AoE seem pretty weak but I guess one cast is about equivalent to a couple banelings?

I think the worst thing about the infestor is that its energy upgrade only increases its starting energy, so you MUST get the upgrade before even building any. It needs to increase their recharge rate or something instead.

[Tehschoolbus]

The problem is I need a tier-3 unit to beat tier-1/ tier-1.5 units.

Seriously, there is a reason every single terran is going M&M 90% of the time. It's because reactor pumped marines and mauraders are stupidly versatile.

Edit: Against protoss at least, I can't speak for zerg players.

They're early-game units, so of course they're going to make up the majority of my army. I mean think of a modern army... there are millions of human rangers and grunts and whatnot, and then there are a couple hundered/thousand tanks and jets. Quite a large difference between those numbers.

Imagine if when 9/11 happened bush was like "omg roflcopterz i'm just gonna mass battlecruisers and vikings and then I'll be unstoppable!" he'd totally fail cause obviously iran is like OVER 9,000 bunkers filled to the brim with stimpacked marines ready to go like hardcore! lol jk

[Barcibus]

colossus + zealots w/charge
I was gearing up for that (due to the enemy going M&M). Then he came at me with Banshees. It seemed like the Terran could switch production much faster than I could when I tried countering M&M (&M).

[Vheissu]

You need to apply constant pressure to their base before they simple counter you and overwhelm.

I really think the trick to beating ZvT as Z is constant pressure so the Terran can't overproduce you.

/agree. I never let terran expand and its always a victory from there.

[Barcibus]

Was just watching the livestream feed from the guy that beat David Kim and he just got destroyed by a Terran M&M. He was so frustrated he asked the guy how to beat the rush (the Terran responded by saying Colossus first).


Here's the feed:
(http://www.teamliquid.net/video/userstream.php?user=Whiplash&chat=0)

[Engrish]

thx for the feed link

[Comtrav]

I think the worst thing about the infestor is that its energy upgrade only increases its starting energy, so you MUST get the upgrade before even building any. It needs to increase their recharge rate or something instead.

All of the energy upgrades are like this.

And all of them could use a look IMO....on a first glance, High Templar seems like the only one worth getting...

[Bibdy]

Problem with DT's: comsat sweep = lots of wasted min/gas. A good terran will probably see your shrine and know that they are coming...

Heh. Three separate times in the last week alone, I've been told by three different so-called awesome Terran players on these forums that all Terrans should be blowing their comsat energy on MULEs and not comsat. Forever. Under all circumstances. And that Terrans have an absolutely awful time dealing with Dark Templar because they have to go all the way to Tier 3 and build a Raven to counter them.

Funny, that.