Current ladder system does not work

[Amishrobot]

Okay, first off
I did not realize there was a ladder so I random'd and never got my real race, spent the time reading abilities for races I dont plan on playing, and sometimes left games randomly (also had not played in 2+ years)

I got put into copper league
realizing theres a ladder system, i Immediately bumped to bronze league
got #1 by about 150 points, then played the #2 guy who i was a full favorite against and only won 8 points
my game at this time was still awful imo, needed serious work on zvp, got that handled (almost everyone is protoss seems like) now i jumped up in skill enormously

got my story out of the way, now here are the anomalies and my problems
im currently bronze league, yet i was a "slight favorite" against a player who i ended up profiling (long story) and he was 6th place gold league
wtf? I was the favorite? well I won and only got 11 points and im two leagues below him

my big problem: why can i NOT move up?
Just by a fleeting glance i can tell me and another guy belong in a different league
3rd place is 1500 points
we're both about 1900 approaching 2k fast
i've beaten tasteless, a #2 platinum player (currently) and only won 19 points, then I immediately beat another guy afterwards for 20 points (must be higher rated I assume)
I assumed these players werent currently highly rated on platinum but I just confirmed recently that they actually were

...and I STILL cant move up
I'm regularly taking 16+ points off of people and the only reason I dont look like a slam dunk candidate to move up is because of one single other guy in my division who also has tons of points

to sum it up, i play the same people, as a bronze im favorite against a 6th place gold player, i dont get a point advantage (i dont win more and i dont lose fewer points)

what is the point of separating ladder into so many leagues and subdivisions?
to further isolate us more than has already been done w/ bnet 2.0?
(btw i have 194 wins, i removed the rust and learned the new strats now im much better than I was when i began and the league system obviously doesn't consider that as a possibility apparently as i seem stuck in this league for life)

/rant off
had to get that out of my system
don't flame plz
but if theres a league system FAQ I can read, please link it to me
agree or disagree, please b mannered tho
correct me or ask for clarification i'll gladly give it

edit - I just saw a thread http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23425463935&sid=5000
and found that I had beaten khanyewest (#1 platinum division 8) and tasteless (#2 platinum division 8) in consecutive games,zvz then zvp and again
im in BRONZE LEAGUE
i also see quite a few other players
just to name one i beat literally right before i wrote this thread, monkey (#8 plat division 1) for 18 points
/2nd rant off



edit - the title was an attention grabber, i don't mean it literally doesn't work for the majority, but i believe there could be additions and fixes
my belief: the league system does not recognize when a player makes a huge leap in skill (beyond the first 30 games)

[Jitterbug]

One thing to take note of is the calculation at the end of the match for points lists the opposite person of the one who actually is favored for the favored bonus. So if you are favored it will say (opponent favored) in the calculation.

Also, you have to remember that this is a beta and testing battle.net 2.0 is a part of it. They haven't had very many people playing on battle.net up until recently. It will take time for them to fine tune the leagues and their matchmaking algorithm.

[Amishrobot]

right
beginning of the match is when i tend to check for favorites to take mental note
rested bonus points (from what ive seen and understand) are only given on your first game of the day
evently matched (w/o bonus points) wins = 12 points, loss = 12 points (my personal experience)
slight favorites can be 11-13 points for wins/losses (depending on who is the slight favorite,from what i've experienced)
full favorite is less predictable because theres different magnitudes of favorites

but the thing is, i was considered a "slight favorite" against a person who i profiled as being 6th place in gold for 1v1 (only won 11 points to confirm)

wtf? does this make sense?

[Aurum]

In release you will almost never verse someone who is not "Evenly Matched" or "Slightly Favored" You should gain and lose about as much rating for each win/loss.

[Edit]: I can see how the league thing is rather annoying though.

[Jitterbug]

I'm in copper and I easily defeated someone in gold. It's going to take them some time to fine tune their algorithm and the leagues.

[Medzo]

The matchmaking system isnt fully working right now because there aren't enough players in the beta to test it properly. There is a message with more info on the lobby screen.

[Useful]

I was told it evaluates your position in the ladder every 30 games.

[Jitterbug]

I was told it evaluates your position in the ladder every 30 games.By whom.

[Darkjokerx]

I took it as you got looked at every 10 but i was just takign a guess becasue I was in bronze league to start and when I hit 30 games I was 20-10 and it moved me up to gold league. Now id like to know what your win loss ratio or amount of points or whatever it is that makes you move up or down a league. Though I do think I belong in gold so it placed me well, I am not as good as alot of plat players and I'm around 50/50 in gold before the protoss nerf patch now I'm not sure have not played yet.

[Neoenigma]

I went 6-4 in my qualifiers. Was put in silver. I was playing zerg, which I decided I suck at. Problem is, I was sucking and it was putting me against people in gold CONSTANTLY.

I switched to terran. I played even more terribly. Enough to drop me down to bronze. I think I was 15-25 when I was put in bronze. I started to get better though... watching streams and getting some advice on fast building.

Now I'm 31-31 and almost +1 in in my division. Still in bronze. Still playing against people in gold. I've gotten 40 points from wins more than a few times.

My problem is similar to yours I guess. I'm definitely not that great... but I keep getting put against people heavily favored. Sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose.

Unfortunately, there isn't anything we can do about it until we get more people in the beta. As of now, we can only point out that it's doing some wonky things. Can't say it's broken though... as this won't be the situation at release.

[Amishrobot]

Well has anybody been moved more than once? I've only heard of people getting bumped once..and this happened in your first dozen or so games.....(doesn't make sense, seeing as how thats when everybody was/is experimenting...at least i was)

i have 1900 points, no sign of slowing down

once i solved my zvp issue it seemed like i could finally focus on the little issues with my other matchups, so i've been on a tear since

i just want 1 ladder, so we can see the equivalency ranks for everyone

imo they tried too hard to copy pgtour and iccup for bw (like the D-A ranks) but that was still one single ladder and everybody had a good idea of where they stand
and everything had definition, you go from 1k points to 3k points, you will be C- no matter what
and if you got to C+ and struggled mightily, then you get an idea of how ridiculously better the A+ players are(with 90% win rate)
but for beta's system, I have no idea where i stand, nothing makes sense in my eyes


this system is completely random
and im going to repeat this since i feel its so ridiculous
im in bronze league
i got matched up with a person ranked #6 in gold league
i was considered the favorite
this makes no sense, this whole system makes no sense, i have no idea how much worse or better i am than the rest of the league players

[Chylo]

Wow, this ladder system is going to be like the endless QQ and misunderstanding of the WOW MMR system and how it works. People just don't get it.

[Chylo]

this system is completely random
and im going to repeat this since i feel its so ridiculous
im in bronze league
i got matched up with a person ranked #6 in gold league
i was considered the favorite
this makes no sense, this whole system makes no sense, i have no idea how much worse or better i am than the rest of the league players

yawn, there's gonna be 50000 more posts like this in beta and release.

You not getting it doesn't mean it isn't working exactly correct. It's not random, it does make sense. Blizz has learned a LOT about ladders over the years.

[Perseverance]

Well has anybody been moved more than once? I've only heard of people getting bumped once..and this happened in your first dozen or so games.....(doesn't make sense, seeing as how thats when everybody was/is experimenting...at least i was)

i have 1900 points, no sign of slowing down

once i solved my zvp issue it seemed like i could finally focus on the little issues with my other matchups, so i've been on a tear since

i just want 1 ladder, so we can see the equivalency ranks for everyone

imo they tried too hard to copy pgtour and iccup for bw (like the D-A ranks) but that was still one single ladder and everybody had a good idea of where they stand
and everything had definition, you go from 1k points to 3k points, you will be C- no matter what
and if you got to C+ and struggled mightily, then you get an idea of how ridiculously better the A+ players are(with 90% win rate)
but for beta's system, I have no idea where i stand, nothing makes sense in my eyes


this system is completely random
and im going to repeat this since i feel its so ridiculous
im in bronze league
i got matched up with a person ranked #6 in gold league
i was considered the favorite
this makes no sense, this whole system makes no sense, i have no idea how much worse or better i am than the rest of the league players

I am pretty sure that with 200 games played you have a good idea of where you stand. What you seem to be upset about is that you don't feel that your current league represents the level of skill you have gained.


I did poorly in my 1v1 qualifiers (Got 2 D/C's) and was put in the Gold league. I didn't play solo for a while after that because I felt that I clearly should of been placed in platinum, but once I did start playing I won almost all of my games, and finally after I beat a top ranked platinum player I was promoted. I don't know what your win/loss ratio is because you didn't feel the need to share it but try going 10-0 or 15-0 and see if that works.

[Metaphysic]

The problem is that it's very unclear what allows you to move up and down leagues. Any kind of clarification from Blizzard would drastically decrease the complaints.

I actually think that the primary problem with the current league/division system is that every division is so tiny. 100 players is ridiculously small; the chance of you actually playing someone in the same division is virtually nonexistent. Imagine what it will be like on release: "Hi, I'm in the gold league, division 10539". What kind of breakdown is that supposed to be?

Split divisions into 500-1000 players and put the top 32-64 or so into the qualifying bracket.

[Amishrobot]

It will work, he just can't do it and I'm sure he losses games of people in upper divisions, thus, he is not getting changed leagues.


PS- When you see a copper playing favored against a gold player, it means the gold player is on a losing streak and the copper playing is on a win streak and when the two face off, the system thinks the copper player will win.

where did you hear this info??? (no response means its made up obviously which is sad, you're clearly feuding w/ me for no good reasons)

[Amishrobot]

I've played artosis while not on a winning streak, a clear contradiction to your invented ladder logic

that wc3 system was implemented when everybody quit (wow release killed it) and no body (at certain levels) could find games anymore

before wow release and before wow beta

wc3 was alive and thriving
there was a rule, only +/- 5 levels would be in your play range (or something along those lines, cant remember precisely)
top 20 players who qued for 20+ minutes would message other top 20 players to see if they wanted to que up

this system was killed when the population died

[Messana]

By whom.

that makes sense, I went from Bronze to gold on my 30th game

[Messana]

What is your league? I bet you're in platinum.

I'm not saying you have to be on a win streak to play a good player, if you're in the division obviously you can get paired vs him or simply having a good record in another division.
our any level plat for that matter.

Are you in a copper league? No, why? Because the system would not have a copper go against Artosis.

You have to use logic....


Well, there is a note that the matchmaking system is set to find players quickly right now rather then to spend time finding people of similar rank / skill. Meaning you can easily get paired up with someone much higher or lower than you, nevermind all that crap about streaks. It is set to just find someone quickly.

[Amishrobot]

What is your league? I bet you're in platinum.

I'm not saying you have to be on a win streak to play a good player, if you're in the division obviously you can get paired vs him or simply having a good record in another division.
our any level plat for that matter.

Are you in a copper league? No, why? Because the system would not have a copper go against Artosis.

You have to use logic....


no im not in platinum

you clearly have not read a single full post of mine in this thread

[Amishrobot]

Disagree, I would not get paired vs a copper player on a losing streak if I were on a winning streak as a platinum. That is almost a guaranteed loss for the copper unless I d/c lol

I have seen multiple screenshots of platinum players getting +0 points for their wins

i assumed that is why they addressed the issue when they did

edit: this is turning into a flame thread, lets please try to keep it positive/constructive
less back and forth please



You're right. Blizzard just matches 2 people up if they were searching at the same time. Blizzard does not take anything into consideration, they simply just find 2 people searching and pair them. You're right, its so simple! I wonder why I'm not playing people who don't know how to build an army... Must just be getting unlucky and finding good players which are simply around my skill level..

You're right, Blizzard does not take records, percent, win-streaks or leagues into consideration or anything...

You honestly believe that....?

No.

[Amishrobot]

No, okay so Blizzard DOES use a system as I was describing, okay. Got it.



you asked a rhetorical question, and attempted to mock me
i just wanted you to stop posting already
please

[Amishrobot]

I am pretty sure that with 200 games played you have a good idea of where you stand. What you seem to be upset about is that you don't feel that your current league represents the level of skill you have gained.


I did poorly in my 1v1 qualifiers (Got 2 D/C's) and was put in the Gold league. I didn't play solo for a while after that because I felt that I clearly should of been placed in platinum, but once I did start playing I won almost all of my games, and finally after I beat a top ranked platinum player I was promoted. I don't know what your win/loss ratio is because you didn't feel the need to share it but try going 10-0 or 15-0 and see if that works.

i have roughly a dozen disconnects and 3 crashes, but this was before i replaced my faulty filter on my phone line

what i did in my first 30 games should not permanently taint what i do in the future
that is my point
and also yes i don't know where i stand
i do know who is better than me, but i don't have even a rough idea of how much better
there is not 1 ladder, there are 7 leagues and numerous divisions of each league
its like trying to compare my wgtour rank with my iccup rank
it does not translate

[Amishrobot]

I'm sorry but if you seriously think that Blizzard does not use some type of record or stat keeping to match, you're so ignorant.

You know they do but you just wanted to start an argument which you were wrong.

I'm not trying to prove a point or anything (okay, yes, I'm trying to prove a point!). Blizzard uses a system for match making. People refer to it as 'ELL' for "Estimated Ladder Level" or 'AMM' "Automatic Match Making".

So don't sit on this thread and try to tell everybody how it is just a giant random mess.

Blizzard has worked hard for this new system which they described as "very complex", the least you could do is acknowledge it and show some respect for a company which we are testing out a game.

Anyway, bed time. I'll be on in ~6 hours. Graveyard shift -_______-

blizzard already said they've configured their match making system to speed and not to relative rank/skill
case and point: i was matched with artosis and i've been matched with tasteless twice

this was not of the same argument i was making
my question was (and i doubt it has anything to do with win streak) why is a bronze player being considered the favorite (which is, from what i understand, based strictly on rating/league) against a #6 gold league player (and therefore gaining fewer points)

in other words: if, as a bronze player, i'm already considered the slight favorite vs a #6 gold player
then why am i not in gold league?
and again, i highly doubt it has to do with win/loss streaks because ive played the same opponent 3 times in a row and the one who was favorited never changed (not even downgraded to 'slight favorite')

[Joshsuth]

I've also played a ton of games (90 or so) and only had my league changed 1 time, and that was after my first 10 rated games.

[Mindless]

I agree with this.

How are weak players supposed to get better if pro players are stuck in bronze....

[Amishrobot]

I've also played a ton of games (90 or so) and only had my league changed 1 time, and that was after my first 10 rated games.

yeah, i have yet to hear somebody change leagues more than once (after playing their first 10 games)

would like to hear somebody do something like silver > gold > platinum
or platinum(after first 10)>silver>gold for example

rather than the typical bronze >> gold or platinum >> silver and then stuck in that league forever

if somebody has actually been moved leagues multiple times, i'd love to hear it
then we'll be getting somewhere

[Perseverance]

amish you really seem like a troll. You can't be that stupid, so you must be trolling. I'll play along.

lololololololol you are bronze I am platinum!!!

harharhar



If you are going to make a thread asking for insight and gilgamesh provides said insight, thank him for it. Don't just dismiss it because it isn't what you want to hear. There are obviously factors that the AMM takes into account that we aren't fully aware of. I can personally vouch for everything gilgamesh said about the AMM as I too was a very skilled WC3 player and now when I mass 2v2 games I encounter the EXACT same thing. first 5-6 of our prelim games are against bronze/silver/gold noobs and then they start getting better until finally for our last qualifying match we play a 74-16 rank 2 platinum team.

If you want to know why you were slightly favored against the #6 gold player think of it like this, he probably had 1500points and you have almost 2000...that's a 500 point difference, even if he is in a higher league you obviously have much, much more experience and thus would be considered favored because of it. Not because you are better, but because he is a newer player. Happy? Of course not.

Besides, it's better if we don't know exactly how the AMM works. If you recall when everyone found out how the AMM worked in WC3 lots of people abused so that they could mass games against noobs and stomp them down for really really good records. Is that what you want to see in SC2?

[Amishrobot]

amish you really seem like a troll. You can't be that stupid, so you must be trolling. I'll play along.

lololololololol you are bronze I am platinum!!!

harharhar



If you are going to make a thread asking for insight and gilgamesh provides said insight, thank him for it. Don't just dismiss it because it isn't what you want to hear. There are obviously factors that the AMM takes into account that we aren't fully aware of. I can personally vouch for everything gilgamesh said about the AMM as I too was a very skilled WC3 player and now when I mass 2v2 games I encounter the EXACT same thing. first 5-6 of our prelim games are against bronze/silver/gold noobs and then they start getting better until finally for our last qualifying match we play a 74-16 rank 2 platinum team.

If you want to know why you were slightly favored against the #6 gold player think of it like this, he probably had 1500points and you have almost 2000...that's a 500 point difference, even if he is in a higher league you obviously have much, much more experience and thus would be considered favored because of it. Not because you are better, but because he is a newer player. Happy? Of course not.

Besides, it's better if we don't know exactly how the AMM works. If you recall when everyone found out how the AMM worked in WC3 lots of people abused so that they could mass games against noobs and stomp them down for really really good records. Is that what you want to see in SC2?

the player I'm referring to is dontinquire.doomed
he has 138 wins, doesnt seem new to me
if you're going to postulate a theory, i'm alright with that
but don't pull an idea out of a hat and try to push it off as fact because its the best thing you could think of at the time

[Perseverance]

the player I'm referring to is dontinquire.doomed
he has 138 wins, doesnt seem new to me
if you're going to postulate a theory, i'm alright with that
but don't pull an idea out of a hat and try to push it off as fact because its the best thing you could think of at the time

His 138 wins versus your 200? Somehow that seems like a very large difference. Over 30%

[Amishrobot]

His 138 wins versus your 200? Somehow that seems like a very large difference. Over 30%



i have more wins than a lot of people
even people who are heavy favorites against me

[Perseverance]

i have more wins than a lot of people
even people who are heavy favorites against me

and this is because there are many factors in the new AMM. Did you expect anything less?

[Amishrobot]

and this is because there are many factors in the new AMM. Did you expect anything less?

less is a vague word
if by less, you mean an understandable, single ladder where all ratings are relative to one another
then yes, sadly i did
this is what i expected though, not necessarily what i want
i like the new concept, i think it would be best if additions were added or at least a comprehensive FAQ were to be posted

i have heard of no body moving leagues more than once after their original placement
and until somebody offers evidence to the contrary, i will maintain my position that there is a serious flaw in that alone

[Perseverance]

less is a vague word
if by less, you mean an understandable, single ladder where all ratings are relative to one another
then yes, sadly i did
this is what i expected though, not necessarily what i want
i like the new concept, i think it would be best if additions were added or at least a comprehensive FAQ were to be posted

i have heard of no body moving leagues more than once after their original placement
and until somebody offers evidence to the contrary, i will maintain my position that there is a serious flaw in that alone

Feel free to maintain your position about how the AMM works. You can maintain your position as a Bronze player and I'll maintain mine as a Platinum player.

There is nothing wrong with the matchmaking system. Blizzard has clearly stated that they have altered certain aspects because of the small playerbase in the beta. Everything else is running flawlessly.

Until somebody offers evidence to the contrary I am maintaining the above position.
/laugh

[Amishrobot]

K

[Tehschoolbus]

It will work, he just can't do it and I'm sure he losses games of people in upper divisions, thus, he is not getting changed leagues.


PS- When you see a copper playing favored against a gold player, it means the gold player is on a losing streak and the copper playing is on a win streak and when the two face off, the system thinks the copper player will win.

If this is true then that's really dumb. You shouldn't be "favored" just because someone is doing poorly. While I can understand the logic behind what you're suggesting, telling someone "favored/unfavored" based on that broad of a variable tells them nothing about the player they're going up against.

Maybe the system should state the league each player is in as well as "favored/unfavored." Maybe even win/loss. In other games (a large variety... none of which, i know, is starcraft 2 beta) you can tell who has the most experience before the fight so you can tell what's at stake. You shouldn't really judge someone's skill based on what's happened recently but rather what has happened overall. Or not if overall then over the last few months. Can't be specific on a day-to-day basis to be given an accurate statement.

[Joey]

This system plays similarly to the arena system in wow:


- Winning more than losing? You will play more games against people in higher rungs than yourself. (If you win you gain more than average points, if you lose you will lose less than average.) Afterwords expect to play more games in a similar manner, if you can keep up a streak, you will break the barrier and you will essentially move up.


- Losing more than winning? You will play more games against people in lower rungs than yourself. (If you win you gain less than average points, if you lose you will lose less than average.) Afterwords expect to play more games in a similar manner, if you can keep up a streak of losing, you will break the barrier and you will essentially move down.


Just because someone isn't in your ladder/league doesn't mean you won't play them. They just have a different weight than yourself.

(Could you imagine if you were in stuck in copper for your whole life? You'd never get better, no challenge, no outside the box thinking. You get good by playing people that are good!)

[Ciez]

No one is fully sure exactly how the AMM system works, or how the "favorite" system works. In fact at the start of one of my games my opponent said something like "You're favorite =P, more incentive for me to try hard" and I was like "Uhh, my screen said "teams evenly matched." So who knows if everyone even sees the same favorites and stuff on the loading screen.

Anyways, back to the point, as some other people have mentioned you probably got matched up against the top platinum players because of the small player-base, Blizzard has even said that they just want people playing games and that they're sorry that sometimes there will be a big gap in skill-levels, but it makes sense. Blizzard wants to collect as much raw data as they can during the beta because they want to have the game as balanced as possible upon release. Blizzard seems to be going about balancing this game in the proper way (at least I prefer small gentle changes frequently to tons of drastic changes after a long time period), and no matter how much people cry silly stuff like "Waaaah roach is imba" if Blizzard has the raw data saying that Zerg loses 75% of matches vs. terran when zerg only makes roaches, then they're not going to nerf roaches.

Basically, the system isn't broken - Blizzard just wants as many games played as possible. Keep winning and I'm sure you'll move up a league, no one knows how it works, but we're all pretty damn sure that it DOES work.

[Joey]

Blizzard ALSO stated that MM is working on speed, not games.


So remember in wc3 (IDK if it was in SC), you could choose to find games by speed, skill, or latency?


Well speed is the current prevalent factor.

[Strimen]

You may have noticed there is a column in the ladder that lists the player position as of LAST WEEK. This could indicate that the system only makes division moves on a weekly basis. Other than when it is shuffling players across a tier to support new comers.

So it may be scheduled for like wenesday nights, which was when a lot of ppl reported shifting tiers. Sort of like how the old WoW PVP system only refreshed your stats every week.

[Ciez]

Yeah that is a good point strimen, we should get people to report when they actually moved leagues. I got swapped around 1:30 pm yesterday I think it was, somewhere around then.

[Zaq]

The problem is that it's very unclear what allows you to move up and down leagues. Any kind of clarification from Blizzard would drastically decrease the complaints.

I actually think that the primary problem with the current league/division system is that every division is so tiny. 100 players is ridiculously small; the chance of you actually playing someone in the same division is virtually nonexistent. Imagine what it will be like on release: "Hi, I'm in the gold league, division 10539". What kind of breakdown is that supposed to be?

Split divisions into 500-1000 players and put the top 32-64 or so into the qualifying bracket.

Absolutely. The divsions are just completely made up BS, they are an artificial construct designed to make everyone feel like they are ranked highly. "Wow I'm 22nd!"

As you pointed out, the odds of you playing people in you division is low. Plus at just 100 players alot of players will not be very active too.

Divisions need to be 500 or 1000 players. At retail there aer going to be THOUSANDS of divisions, its just retarded.

The fact you can see other leagues and division's ladders is dumb too.