Discuss: is every plat PvP game proxy cheese?

[Talbs]

seems like every game both ppl use the same strat. whoever uses it better wins. whoever doesnt use it loses


vid of strat


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bkfRylhAMs



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciXq_Fu8hW8

[Rks]

Actually everybody use the same strat in PvP. PvP and ZvZ really need a fix or two, AFAIK every mirror games in SC2 are pretty much boring for both players and audiences.

Warp-in time really need to increase and/or the price of units in Warpgate cost more than normal Gateway

[Noisetank]

Seems like it.

PvP games are going to be really boring.

[Comtrav]

...man, I thought TvT sucked.

[Deadlyhazard]

Irritates me so much. I was more skilled than my opponent -- but they did the cheese rush and I still ended up losing. In the end, I had a higher overall score by about twice but they still won. Grrr. I'm not sure how they can fix this TBH; maybe it's not meant to be fixed. Perhaps there's a counter. One thing that does need to be adressed though is rushes in general. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Crisischild]

Irritates me so much. I was more skilled than my opponent -- but they did the cheese rush and I still ended up losing. In the end, I had a higher overall score by about twice but they still won. Grrr. I'm not sure how they can fix this TBH; maybe it's not meant to be fixed. Perhaps there's a counter. One thing that does need to be adressed though is rushes in general. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Don't quote me but I think there's a setting when you create your own map that allows you to set up no-rushing for x min games. I could be way off though, I actually have no idea.

[Xnimativ]

Irritates me so much. I was more skilled than my opponent -- but they did the cheese rush and I still ended up losing. In the end, I had a higher overall score by about twice but they still won. Grrr. I'm not sure how they can fix this TBH; maybe it's not meant to be fixed. Perhaps there's a counter. One thing that does need to be adressed though is rushes in general. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

if you lose to rushes you aren't more skilled than your opponent, sorry.

[Scion]

if you lose to rushes and you blame your opponent, you are not more skilled than your opponent, sorry.

fixed. If you lose to a rush only one to blame is yourself.

[Raxus]

Putting a range on it from the gateways could remedy this as well.

[Baked]

Putting a range on it from the gateways could remedy this as well. lets face it tho, you should be quick enough to stop said pylon before he gets his warpgates. There are ways around this so its not really to cheesy. Face it people just hate being rushed.....

[Omniance]

lets face it tho, you should be quick enough to stop said pylon before he gets his warpgates. There are ways around this so its not really to cheesy. Face it people just hate being rushed.....

There are ways, but there are no ways that will allow you to win. Even if you kill the proxy with your workers, you've just washed away your resource advantage for a good portion of the game on a 100 mineral structure that can easily be rebuilt again, and a 50 mineral probe.

[Johan]

Actually everybody use the same strat in PvP. TvT and ZvZ really need a fix or two, AFAIK every mirror games in SC2 are pretty much boring for both players and audiences.

Warp-in time really need to increase and/or the price of units in Warpgate cost more than normal Gateway

This is generally what I thought too. Mirror matches have always seemed extremely boring to me, even in other games. Using WC3 as an example, whenever I would watch pro replays I always avoided ones with mirror matches since they were usually extremely boring. I know that in SC2 TvT is my least favorite match up (I only play terran so I havent' experience the other races mirrors).

That said PvP sounds horrible and I am glad I don't have to experience this. I can't really think of any way to fix this, though :S

[Soli]

I've never lost a PvP to pylon warping. They need to get a core up AND vespene AND research warp gate - that's hardly even a rush IMO. I do agree that it's annoying and should be fixed but unless everyone I've played PvP against is just terrible at it, it's far from unbeatable - a straight up mass Zealots rush can pump out more units faster. A core + assimilator + 2 vespene probes + researching warp gate... That's 375/50 to spend on non-combat units, almost as much 'wasted' resources as fast expanding for the early Zealot wars phase of PvP.

[Audaylon]

I wish Zealots didn't kill a marine in 3 hits.

[Stompey]

lets face it tho, you should be quick enough to stop said pylon before he gets his warpgates. There are ways around this so its not really to cheesy. Face it people just hate being rushed.....

A lot of you say such ignorant things that I question why you are beta testers at all. Watch the vid before you make an ignorant post.

Learn the game before you talk like you know what you are talking about. "ya kill it" You cannot kill a pylon because the timing of this attack is ridiculously fast, at this point in the game you have 1 zealot out, maybe 2 if u rushed them. Even so, if i drop 2 pylons in ur base. 1 WILL FINISH

High level play is dictated by a lot of cheese rushes, that the only counter to is massing urself.

[Rks]

I wish Zealots didn't kill a marine in 3 hits.
It's 3x2 so actually 6 hits :)

[Bibdy]

The fix is to increase the Warp Gate research time, giving people time to make a Stalker and kill the Probe before its worth building Pylons.

At the moment there's about a 5 second window, at best, for player A's Stalker to kill player B's Probe before they should start building the Pylons. Add another minute to that research time and there's a much more acceptable window.

[Ultimatus]

OR,

Defend? using sentry? hold the zealots off with a PC, stalker, high ground and sentry block? meanwhile set up an immortal rush with chronoboost. Toss who uses warp with 3~4 Warpgates hardly have any higher techs.

Just my 2c

[Messana]

Don't quote me but I think there's a setting when you create your own map that allows you to set up no-rushing for x min games. I could be way off though, I actually have no idea.

Please god tell me you're trolling.

[Newcomplex]

It isn't really a cheese.

[Sardonic]

I haven't been cheesed yet. I've had attempts, but not successful. I usually put pylons in expected places where I think my opponent might place a proxy pylon. If I do that, the only place they can place one is outside my choke; to which I usually start to tech to colossus or mothership. Most replays I've seen they've just gone full on Zealots, so they are weak against that match up. By the time they realize what I have, I've taken out any proxy they might have had, and am approaching them with a mothership with cloaked everything underneath; or send a couple colossus with zealots and a couple stalkers.

I've lost many times, but not once to a cheese.

[Fors]

...man, I thought TvT sucked.

Right now TvT seems to be the most "varied". t.t

[Lugiana]

In response to limited warp gate range:

This would really tear up the abilities of the warp prism. Right now every drop-ship type unit has two functions. OLs provide supply, Medivacs own face, Warp Prisms allow warping.

The simplest solution is walling. I know everybody hates that, but the other way is chasing down everything you see come in and checking every corner of your base constantly to make sure you weren't dropped on, nydused, or the keen new owner of an enemy pylon.

[Carny]

In response to limited warp gate range:

This would really tear up the abilities of the warp prism. Right now every drop-ship type unit has two functions. OLs provide supply, Medivacs own face, Warp Prisms allow warping.

The simplest solution is walling. I know everybody hates that, but the other way is chasing down everything you see come in and checking every corner of your base constantly to make sure you weren't dropped on, nydused, or the keen new owner of an enemy pylon.

You can't wall if he has the scout probe in your base early. You can't kill the probe unless he chooses not to micro it. You can't kill 2 pylons at the same time. You cant build zealots faster than warp gates that are chrono boosted and chasing your probes.

The only solution I have to defend this is to perhaps wall off your minerals with gateways/pylons/assimilators and mass zealots and hope he cant get zealots in your mineral line. Pretty sure this won't work either though.

Move warp gate research to templar archive, or put a range on warp in from warp gates to pylons. But keep infinite range on warp in to warp prism.

This only fixes one small part of the PVP battle. If you nerf warp gates, now the fight comes down to setting up proxy bases outside the enemy base, or really close and spamming zealots of 3-5 gateways. I have no idea how to fix this without screwing protoss over vs other races.

[Hawg]

Both PvP and ZvZ are broken. The cause is that the roach is either too easy to produce for its cost or else early, and the toss has no counter for zealots other than colossus, which is kinda late.
The warp gates need nerfs, stalker and archon need buffs. I know that would fix PvP. Nerf the roach for ZvZ. Make it cost 2 supply or something. That would help lings and banelings better and more viable.

[Streetwise]

lets face it tho, you should be quick enough to stop said pylon before he gets his warpgates. There are ways around this so its not really to cheesy. Face it people just hate being rushed.....

Actually this is false. They simply lay down a few pylonsin your base, you cant stop it, thats why I am part of the 'if you cant beat em join em' crowd. Every high level PvP is resorted to either this or proxy gate and to be honest its kind of boring right now. But then again this is a Beta and there will be changes I am sure.

[Comtrav]

The fix is to increase the Warp Gate research time, giving people time to make a Stalker and kill the Probe before its worth building Pylons.

At the moment there's about a 5 second window, at best, for player A's Stalker to kill player B's Probe before they should start building the Pylons. Add another minute to that research time and there's a much more acceptable window.

This actually sounds like a quite reasonable fix, and would probably impact PvT and PvZ much less then some other proposed changes.

http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/buildings/cybernetics-core

Warp Gate only takes a minute to research. I was really surprised to see that, that's really almost trivial for such an upgrade with such a massive impact. Contrast with:

http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/buildings/twilight-council
110 seconds for Blink, 140 seconds for Charge, both of which are extremely powerful, but not nearly on the level of Warp Gates. (And comparable to the research times for other high-impact upgrades like Stimpack and Speedlings.)

[Lendari]

This happens all the time... when both people are agressive it comes down to who can kill the buildings faster.

Zerg always looses because they have less buildings. :(

[Chaosdragoon]

This actually sounds like a quite reasonable fix, and would probably impact PvT and PvZ much less then some other proposed changes.

http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/buildings/cybernetics-core

Warp Gate only takes a minute to research. I was really surprised to see that, that's really almost trivial for such an upgrade with such a massive impact. Contrast with:

http://www.sc2armory.com/game/protoss/buildings/twilight-council
110 seconds for Blink, 140 seconds for Charge, both of which are extremely powerful, but not nearly on the level of Warp Gates. (And comparable to the research times for other high-impact upgrades like Stimpack and Speedlings.)


Yeah, the upgrade time for it is insane I would hardly call Blink or Charge "game breaking" yet, Warp Gate on the other hand, is.

[Darkness]

Rank 4 Protoss Plat, 1800 Points.

100% of the games have turned into Proxy Pylon 3 Warp Gate rush for PvP mirror. Some of you guys are saying that cybernetics core + assimilator + 50 gas is too much to invest and the defender should have more zealots than you, but its not true, the attacker only gets a limited number of probes (14) and conserves his chrono boost energy, using it twice to super research warp gates (reducing it to 30 seconds), and then using them on warp gates right after 3 zealots are made in enemy base, allowing 3 more to zone in around 12 seconds later, 6 zealots in the enemy base right off the start, it can't be stopped.

Every PvP game has turned into who can produce the most zealots before your probes are destroyed, who can destroy eachother's base faster, than who can win the one battle between zealots in the middle of the map while heading to eachother's base.

It's really lame =/

EDIT: And no, you can't wall it off, the 9 scout probe is the one that makes the pylon, you can't make a protoss wall that early. And you can't kill the pylon, if he sees you're trying to actually defend, he can make 2 pylons at the same time.

[Kinaesthesia]

Irritates me so much. I was more skilled than my opponent -- but they did the cheese rush and I still ended up losing. In the end, I had a higher overall score by about twice but they still won. Grrr. I'm not sure how they can fix this TBH; maybe it's not meant to be fixed. Perhaps there's a counter. One thing that does need to be adressed though is rushes in general. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

It's been fixed already, so much so that if you lose to a proxy rush you deserve to lose. Extra 10 seconds on gateway build time and 10 less seconds on Chrono Boost.

[Fallenhero]

It's been fixed already, so much so that if you lose to a proxy rush you deserve to lose. Extra 10 seconds on gateway build time and 10 less seconds on Chrono Boost.

it HAS NOT been fixed.

[Kinaesthesia]

it HAS NOT been fixed.

Any further nerf on gateway build time or Chrono Boost will only serve to lower Protoss even more against Terran or Zerg.