If you cant beat, join em.

[Bloodsugar]

So after two games in a row where i had a higher score than my opponent and LOST(to zerg), i finally decided to play zerg.
At this point i played the current zerg(sc 2 version) twice. Once in FFA and once against a comp to test out the new stuff.
So far im 5-0 and completely wrecking everybody. Im in bronze league but im consistently beating favored players.

Theres just nothing you can do against mass hydras if you use them right. One player had about 2 colossus and a bunch of stalkers. he almost had me, but i pulled back and nydus'd in his base while he was attacking. As i was demolishing his base, i was able to mass produce hydras while killing his base. he took out my expo but i completely ahnilated his base and then had about 20 hydras back on D to slow him down. Then i nydus'ed my attacking hydras back, killled off his attack, and then nydusd all my guys back to his base again for the finishing blow. That was the hardest game ive had in the last 5 games. Every other game was just total face roll.
Zerg has too much utility, can mass any unit they want with ease, the queen is pretty op, hydras are REALLY op(you have to upgrade their range though). I mean, its just sad. I dont even try as zerg. Its just the same thing over and over no1 can stop it. By the time you tech to stop the hydras its too late.
Requiring a lair to get hydras does not justify their OP-ness.
People keep saying its "greener on the other side" when you say zerg is op, but its not. its greener on the zerg side(or more purpley? i dont know lol).

[Crisischild]

Hydras aren't too hard to counter as 'Toss.

Zealots to eat the spines, a half dozen Templar's to wtfpwn those 40 Hydras. After the Hydras are dead, merge to Archons and assault their base. People underestimate storm. It's not as good as it used to be but it still owns Zerg. If people tried to go beyond T1.5 they would know that.

[Yoichi]

well i thought so at first too until i used a mix of zealots, collosus, stalkers and sentrys, charge upgraded and blink, making sure to use the sentrys shield ability, that is key.. i mean reduced ranged dmg by 5 may not seem like much but considering how many times a group of hydra spits, it can dramatically change the tide in a battle

[Bloodsugar]

Hydras aren't too hard to counter as 'Toss.

Zealots to eat the spines, a half dozen Templar's to wtfpwn those 40 Hydras. After the Hydras are dead, merge to Archons and assault their base. People underestimate storm. It's not as good as it used to be but it still owns Zerg. If people tried to go beyond T1.5 they would know that.

Psi storm is easy to avoid. Just pull back. Alot of zerg players just A attack but if you micro your hydras they are seriously unstoppable. That storm might take out the front row of hydras(what, 5 hydras?) Although that sounds lik ea cost benefit for the HT, you are forgetting the research and building tech required to get those abilities. Against a bad zerg player its easy to just psi storm their army but any good player will just run back until the storms go off.

[Yoichi]

Psi storm is easy to avoid. Just pull back. Alot of zerg players just A attack but if you micro your hydras they are seriously unstoppable. That storm might take out the front row of hydras(what, 5 hydras?) Although that sounds lik ea cost benefit for the HT, you are forgetting the research and building tech required to get those abilities. Against a bad zerg player its easy to just psi storm their army but any good player will just run back until the storms go off.

anticipating the pullback should be a given. just with a little micro management you can force a group of zerg to pull back right into a well placed storm

[Wyrd]

Another nifty thing you can do is have sentinels drop their force fields behind the hydras, making them either have to stay in the storm or run straight at your units. Its good either way. People underestimate the advantage of a wall you can just summon.

[Crisischild]

Psi storm is easy to avoid. Just pull back. Alot of zerg players just A attack but if you micro your hydras they are seriously unstoppable. That storm might take out the front row of hydras(what, 5 hydras?) Although that sounds lik ea cost benefit for the HT, you are forgetting the research and building tech required to get those abilities. Against a bad zerg player its easy to just psi storm their army but any good player will just run back until the storms go off.


You're assuming the 'Toss player is just Attack moving. Not all 'Toss players suck, believe it or not. For instance, sentries are awesome micro'd right. Grab a couple sentries, a dozen stalkers (with blink), and some Templars or Archons. About all a bunch of Hydras' can do against that is retreat(if there isn't a ramp behind them, lolsumonablewall) or die.
But that's just my experience and I do weird stuff like Tech shields and armor and crap.

[Yoichi]

@Wyrd.nobrains , ya never thought about using the wall ability like that.. thanks for that tip! my game has now improved

[Toaster]

So far I've been winning non-stop with rines tanks followed by medivacs and vikings. Hydra's are far from OP are rarely cuase me any real trouble. Toss is even easier with EMP being so powerful. Granted I'm not a noob and I know hotkeys and how to bind keys... I'm also in bronze ( should probably be in silver since my 10 first games were usualy making BC and Thot armies lol)

[Legato]

Psi storm is easy to avoid. Just pull back. Alot of zerg players just A attack but if you micro your hydras they are seriously unstoppable. That storm might take out the front row of hydras(what, 5 hydras?) Although that sounds lik ea cost benefit for the HT, you are forgetting the research and building tech required to get those abilities. Against a bad zerg player its easy to just psi storm their army but any good player will just run back until the storms go off.

This is true. I have psi stormed many hydra in my day. A competent zerg player will easily avoid the majority of the psi storm damage. Against mass hydras psi storm isn't as good as it makes out to be on paper unless you have a very good terrain advantage. Psi storm is more effective in a defensive capacity than an offensive one. I think a large part of the problem is the high templar's relative slowness.

Theres just nothing you can do against mass hydras if you use them right.

I agree with this completely. Alot of people like to play theorycraft instead of starcraft. Get out there against a blob of hydras and watch as any cost comparable protoss force gets completely destroyed by this single unit.

[Shinosai]

This is true. I have psi stormed many hydra in my day. A competent zerg player will easily avoid the majority of the psi storm damage. Against mass hydras psi storm isn't as good as it makes out to be on paper unless you have a very good terrain advantage. Psi storm is more effective in a defensive capacity than an offensive one. I think a large part of the problem is the high templar's relative slowness.



I agree with this completely. Alot of people like to play theorycraft instead of starcraft. Get out there against a blob of hydras and watch as any cost comparable protoss force gets completely destroyed by this single unit.

Don't colossus completely decimate hydras when they have a zealot meatshield in front?

[Yoichi]

Don't colossus completely decimate hydras when they have a zealot meatshield in front?

yes if the zerg player doesnt micro, but if they target each Col. to attack at once, they will decimate them very quickly

[Legato]

Don't colossus completely decimate hydras when they have a zealot meatshield in front?

I was just considering amending my post to add that. This is true. But with the numbers you will need to build against the masses of hydras I've seen, it is also so risky as to not always be viable. You need a very large investment in tech and the actual units themselves. This leaves your production capacity even more inflexible than it already is compared to the natural zerg flexibility. Since counters are so important that can prove fatal.

yes if the zerg player doesnt micro, but if they target each Col. to attack at once, they will decimate them very quickly

If you have a proper zealot meatshield like he said, the hydras won't be able to advance forward to attack 9 range colossi.

[Shinosai]

yes if the zerg player doesnt micro, but if they target each Col. to attack at once, they will decimate them very quickly

If they try that with a zealot meatshield in front all you have to do is take two steps back with the colossus they're focusing, and they start attacking retarded and going WAHH IM A HYDRALISK BUT I CAN'T ATTACK IT

[Hulkbot]

sentries can also block off hydra's exit from said storms.

set up the blockade and psi storm away (anticipating where they will move with the blockade in place).

the hydra army would be dead leaves by the time the shields disappeared.

[Legato]

sentries can also block off hydra's exit from said storms.

set up the blockade and psi storm away (anticipating where they will move with the blockade in place).

the hydra army would be dead leaves by the time the shields disappeared.

More often than not (way more often), if the zerg player doesn't just kite you to begin with, your sentries cast range is well within overlapping field of needle spines... At best you can hope for a half finished shield wall before they decimate your 40 shield 40 health sentries.

I wouldn't even waste my time.

[Bloodsugar]

More often than not (way more often), if the zerg player doesn't just kite you to begin with, your sentries cast range is well within overlapping field of needle spines... At best you can hope for a half finished shield wall before they decimate your 40 shield 40 health sentries.

I wouldn't even waste my time.

thats what i was gonna say. Every smart player upgrades needle spines.
Hydras do better against every bio unit toss has and by the time your opponent has enough money to make colossi you are going to have way more hydras than he has bio so you can easily overrun the colossi. I can mass out 40 hydras easy before a toss player can get 1 High templar. Theres no bio unit the toss has that can survive the hydras.

[Deadlyhazard]

Zerg is definitely a problem right now. I mainly play toss, but even when I outplay my opponent, attempt to use counters, and end up with a higher score overall -- I still lose half the time. Been trying all sorts of things but its easier for Zerg to amass units before I can get out a colossi or high templar.

I feel protoss and terran are a bit in the dumps ATM, and zerg are a bit too overpowered.

[Lazz]

This is only the case at very low levels of play.

[Johan]

Yea, as terran player in gold league TvZ seems to be my easiest match up. Hydras are no worry for me; marines and marauders can usually handle the job. If he should manage to get too many hydras a raven or two with seeker missiles destroys nearly his entire army pretty easily. Banelings, though, are scary *@@% :X

[Kranden]

psi storm is great vs ground troops but just awful vs mutalisks, they fly out of it before they take any serious damage.

[Legato]

This is only the case at very low levels of play.

What specifically are you speaking of?

[Bloodsugar]

so i tried a few 1v1s today as toss.

Demolished a terran player.
Had a close game with another toss player(really close, i had a few unpowered buildings when the game was over. dont know who that was but that was an awesome game).
And then this zerg player just masses roaches and kills my entire army with roaches.

Sentries suck they get killed in half a second. Zealots get ahnilated by roaches. Stalkers are garbage. And colossi are good but what good are they if 8 roaches kill your entire front line of zealots?

Zerg is just ridiculous right now. Terran only has a chance because terran can put up a major defense. Offensively? you arent going to get jack done against zerg. They can just summon another army in 2 seconds and kill your puny little tank/rine push.

zerg ruins 1v1. Hell even 2v2 to some degree.

[Stratosspear]

Hydras aren't too hard to counter as 'Toss.

Zealots to eat the spines, a half dozen Templar's to wtfpwn those 40 Hydras. After the Hydras are dead, merge to Archons and assault their base. People underestimate storm. It's not as good as it used to be but it still owns Zerg. If people tried to go beyond T1.5 they would know that.

Except that by the time you get half a dozen Templar, he's got 80 Hydralisks.

Straight up Hydralisks aren't horrible. The imbalance with Hydralisks is that it takes expensive, higher tech units to counter them.

[Geryth]

Psi storm is easy to avoid. Just pull back. Alot of zerg players just A attack but if you micro your hydras they are seriously unstoppable. That storm might take out the front row of hydras(what, 5 hydras?) Although that sounds lik ea cost benefit for the HT, you are forgetting the research and building tech required to get those abilities. Against a bad zerg player its easy to just psi storm their army but any good player will just run back until the storms go off.

Sentries my friend, sentries. Spam F for forcefield in a giant circle and trap them in, they can't move, and get eaten by storm. I've seen it a bunch. I'm trying hard to learn how to use force field, it's probably one of the best underused spells in the game.

[Kkoopp]

This post is why wow players should stick to mmo's

OP this OP that, Nerf this, nerf that, ooololloololol faceroll.

Oh, and cool story bro.

[Coldvoltage]

Yea this would never fly in higher levels of play. I'm stomping Zerg as Toss pretty consistently in my gold league. Scouting is key... If they get caught not knowing you're about to nydus or that you have 100 hydralisks they deserve to lose...

[Suicidemech]

Hydra masser, meet zealot masser with charge...

[Steverweaver]

This is what should be done to hydras.. haha.. Psi Storm rules.. best replay of all time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oseRVPx-9X0&feature=related

[ghost]

I'd wager that the amount of damage people were avoiding on average from storms in SC1 was causing a 120 damage storm that took longer to do damage, only realistically do 80.

just because its not the end all be all of spells anymore, doesnt mean it isnt still the absolute best AoE spell in the game.

[Hamshank]

Sounds like your opponents are still noobs from what I'm reading, hang in there and don't get to cocky.

This is an excellent sign though, you're on your way up

[Lendari]

One player had about 2 colossus and a bunch of stalkers

So he spent 600\400 on the protoss mass counter. Wait until you go up against an army with 3-4 colossus, psi storm and shield. There is a pro video of a guy taking down an entire control group of hydralisks and regaining map control against a zerg with 2 explansions with nothing but high templars and a few zealots.

Protoss should never loose a ground battle against zerg or you're doin it wrong.

[Deadron]

Hydras require a Lair a Hydralisk den and a @%@@ ton of gas to even consider mass producing and die way too easily to T1 units considering how many you should have massed before the hydras hit the field. If you are being beat by mass hydras thats a pretty good indication you need to spend more time building an army in tier 1 instead of teching.