The current state of Protoss

[Runtime]

I want to have a discussion regarding the Protoss in the current build.

In my experience with the game thus far, Protoss feel HIGHLY underpowered vs the other 2 races.

VS Terran

- Why is it that Reapers gain the ability to jump cliffs innately, but Stalkers must research their Blink ability at the Twilight council? This gives Terran an immediate advantage early - mid game, as they can tech up right away to Reapers and tear apart your base in no time. In order to counter this, it forces the Toss player to turtle up, effectively giving Terran map control.

- The new M&M (Marines and Marauders) effectively means your Zealots cant even get close to attach without the Charge ability, which is also researched late into the game through the Twilight Council. A group of early M&M can effectively make it so your zealots can't even reach the attacking force, making them useless. You CAN go Core to Stalkers/Sentrys, but they also get overwhelmed and out damaged as well - and due to not having Blink early on, they cannot escape Marauders.

Basically, VS toss, all Terran needs to do is go M&M, with some reapers, and they can win every time, no problem.

VS Zerg

- Roaches are FAR to hard to take down. A zerg player can early expansion AND quick tech to Roaches early on (Been done to me a game already). The only answer to a quick expansion is early zealots - as it's the only counter to being outnumbered and losing map control. However, by the time you can get your Zealots to the early exp - you can be facing a devastating force of Lings + Roaches. Any zerg that just goes lings is asking for trouble (Without speed boost, at least) vs Toss. (On a side note - the player that early EXP with quick Roach tech exclaimed that he feigned the quick exp to get me to go zealots. However, it's not a feign, as you actually ARE gaining the quick exp - if I hadn't gone zealots right offhand to attempt to counter it, he would have had not only the quick exp + roaches, but Muta's fairly quickly as well.)

- Which lead me to my second comment - Mutalisks. Protoss has little to no capable anti-air. A zerg player who doesn't get taken out very-early game (Due to a Zealot rush, if the zerg player isn't fast enough to pull out roaches), will completely dominate the rest of the game using Mutas. They out damage stalkers, Archons require far too much teching,resources, and can't keep up - and Phoenix is by far the most useless unit in the game currently, not even being situational at best.

- It's sad when the only counter to early Roaches are Immortals - which are way too high tier to consider as a proper counter.

How to fix these issues:

- Either nerf Terran M&M, or lower Blink or Charge research to the Cybernetics core. I don't mind it having to be researched - but having to tech so high just for those abilities that are CRUCIAL vs Terran, when they get Marauder Slow/Reaper Jump pack innately is a little absurd. This also would mean that as the skill grows of the toss player, he could better match up vs M&M micro. This would also help VS Roaches, as Zealots and Stalkers would be able to close distance and with proper micro be able to handle Roaches.

- The Phoenix needs to be taken a look at. It doesn't attack ground, the gravity beam is useless in almost all cases, and for being a supposed air superiority fighter, it doesn't even do it's job.

Due to these issues, you see alot of Protoss attempting to turtle and tech. This means that each of the other races have free reign to gain map control with little pressure.

[Kryptx]

If someone expands early you should be able to spot it. If he hasn't already expanded when you first scout, he'll have fewer buildings than he should and you should get together a couple units to take out the expansion.

I imagine that psi storm would be an effective counter to mutas, if this game is anything like Brood War. Have you tried that?

Roaches are another story. Being primarily a zerg player myself I would say the best strategy is a few cannons in your base, along with a handful of stalkers.

I'd be happy to experiment with some of these ideas in a 1v1, feel free to friend me if you're interested.

[Runtime]

If someone expands early you should be able to spot it. If he hasn't already expanded when you first scout, he'll have fewer buildings than he should and you should get together a couple units to take out the expansion.

I imagine that psi storm would be an effective counter to mutas, if this game is anything like Brood War. Have you tried that?

Roaches are another story. Being primarily a zerg player myself I would say the best strategy is a few cannons in your base, along with a handful of stalkers.

I'd be happy to experiment with some of these ideas in a 1v1, feel free to friend me if you're interested.

You still have to tech REALLY high to obtain Templar, and they still can't keep up with a player who can micro his mutas half way decently.

As far as roaches go - if the only counter to Roaches at the same level of the game is to defend in - there is the problem I highlighted. You have to bunker down, giving the zerg player map control until you can get Immortals, and by that time the zerg player can already have expansions - putting you behind.

[Redscare]

reminds me of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Qsq9J3g8g

[Rhythm]

Psy storm is way too expensive and hard to get to. You have to build a gateway, cybernetics core, twilight counsel, and then the templar archives, and then research it for 200 min and gas, not to mention the cost of a templar. Why is there a separate building for dts and templars? From my experience, by the time a protoss player has advanced to psy storm, the enemy has advanced far to much on the map for it to be a feasible spell. Although i will admit, psy storm and warp in can be a sick combo! The only time ive been able to use psy storm is mid-late game.

[Darkness]

10-2 solo and 11-1 2v2 RT as protoss

Honestly I think the race is fine. Well microed blink stalkers can turn the tide of games.

[Serpico]

I agree roaches are a bit ridiculous atm.

[Frozen]

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23329393083&sid=5000

[Attica]

Roaches are pretty difficult to counter as toss. I think I need to experiment more with sentries before I really decide they are op.

[Essentia]

Roaches are totally imba vs Protoss. neither stalkers or zealots can effectively counter them.

I also agree that blink and charge should be available to upgrade a the cybernetics core.

[Frozen]

sentries have an ability to lower all dmg taken by 2... so combined with the natural armor of protoss units... most enemy attacks glance off. I do, however, miss the shield battery. That was by far the best defense mechanic the protoss had in SC1.

[Raydude]

Been using protoss and WAS ranked number 1 for 2v2, I let my bro play =/ There's nothing wrong with protoss, he just requires a lot of diverse units to work. Psi storm is pretty useful too, two templars is enough, 2-3 sentries spamming shield + forcefield in any battle (yes you can create a chokepoint in an open area with 2-3 sentries spamming force field!) really makes your day and blinking stalkers to behind enemy lines to take out tanks and any other squishy but high damaging units.

[paradox]

idk ive been zealot spammed many times and the ONLY way i can counter as zerg is roach spam

[Runtime]

sentries have an ability to lower all dmg taken by 2... so combined with the natural armor of protoss units... most enemy attacks glance off. I do, however, miss the shield battery. That was by far the best defense mechanic the protoss had in SC1.

Even using sentries, they cost 100 gas per sentry. They are EXTREMELY expensive gas wise, meaning less gas for tech or for other higher tier units.

And like I said, Stalkers are lol without the blink ability. VS zerg, all they need is speed upgraded lings and your blink ability wont do much to them.

[BeL]

Yeah, I'd agree that Protoss is... strange. Honestly I'm not sure what they're going for. I've played 20+ ranked games with the race, and it's getting to the point that I feel like there's really only two economically viable units, zealot and carriers. Everything else is too ineffective for it's total cost of ownership through research, buildings, and production.

[Redscare]

Yeah, I'd agree that Protoss is... strange. Honestly I'm not sure what they're going for. I've played 20+ ranked games with the race, and it's getting to the point that I feel like there's really only two economically viable units, zealot and carriers. Everything else is too ineffective for it's total cost of ownership through research, buildings, and production.


but oh god 3/3 zealots with charge are some deadly things

[Cervach]

I started out playing as zerg, now I play protoss quite a bit in 2v2. I've played against a bunch of players who used the "roach spam," and I've never lost yet. You're right, protoss do need to turtle a bit early on in order to be able to withstand a roach/zergling/marine/reaper attack, but it can be survived.

Against zerg, I almost always tech quickly to Void Rays, build 2, and take out their hatchery or hatcheries. Zerg players that are teching to mass roach almost never have sufficient anti air to deal with 2 void rays early on. (I get void rays in about 5-6 mins) Before the void rays are built, I have at least 6 zealots and a few cannons at the choke of my base. I usually keep one or two zealots and a cannon or two by my probes as well. These zealots and cannon(s) easily decimate reaper rushes that sneak in the back or sides of my base. The defense of the zealots and a handful of cannons at the choke is also plenty vs. roaches this early on.

Anyway - the two void rays inevitably destroy the zerg players hatchery, and usually his queen if he tries to use her to take down the void rays. This sets the zerg player back a few minutes and if they have absolutely no anti-air yet (which in most cases they won't), without the help of their teammate they will die.

It's just a fantastic early strategy for playing zerg when you're toss. The only way for the zerg player to counter this is to go straight for evolution chamber and build lots of spore colonies. Hydra teching takes too long (you get void rays faster!) and roach spam is ground only. Also, the zerg player could build about 3 queens to defeat the 2 void rays, but that's not something they are investing in within the first 7 mins or so of a game.

Hope some of you toss players find this helpful.

[Excrement]

Building 3 queens seems silly to counter void rays, queens are a support unit, and I mainly use them for the extra larva, and one is more than enough to support 3 hatcheries with that spell.

I would rather use the resouces on hydras or mutas, before mutliple queens, to counter void rays. If someone doesn't have mutas or hydras by the time you have void rays, he or she isn't scouting properly.


As for the roaches, Immortals work wonders.

[Cervach]

Building 3 queens seems silly to counter void rays, queens are a support unit, and I mainly use them for the extra larva, and one is more than enough to support 3 hatcheries with that spell.

I would rather use the resouces on hydras or mutas, before mutliple queens, to counter void rays. If someone doesn't have mutas or hydras by the time you have void rays, he or she isn't scouting properly.


As for the roaches, Immortals work wonders.



Haven't really played a zerg player that went for mutas. That would be really tough to deal with if I went for void rays for early harassment. I also don't see any great anti-air units on the toss side, besides carriers, that could be effectively massed to deal with a mass muta assault.

[Rebelfist]

seems to me that the hardest single unit for toss to deal with at the moment are mutas

[Outofranch]

[quote]

I imagine that psi storm would be an effective counter to mutas, if this game is anything like Brood War. Have you tried that?
quote]

Psi storm is quite underpowered at the moment to be entirely effective. Perhaps lowering the resource cost for high templars or the tech for the psi storm.

[Tehschoolbus]

M&M overpowering you? Sentries, charge, and upgrading your units will all help. If they've gotten far enough where they can build medivacs then you've had time to build immortals. Immortals are protoss's ground powerhouse. If you don't get immortals, then you should get a colossus or two. Burns through a bag of M&Ms like I myself do (which is usually pretty fast lol)

Trouble with roaches? They're slow. While they can take a lot of hits they have no air attack and so long as you properly position detectors around your base you'll be fine against their moving burrowed raids. If you're really going to say that countering roaches with immortals or colossus is "too high a tier to be considered" then your crazy. Think of it this way... sure maybe your un-upgraded mass of zealots might not be able to get close to their counter-zealot roaches, but if you can fend off a few attacks using tactics to keep them boxed up for a bit, you can out-tech them. Once you've out-teched them you'll have the game.

I found it interesting that you said a player that goes just lings is asking for trouble, because I myself only go for lings early game, and after a variety of games I've found it to be the best zerg tactic. I can counter toss zealot rushes and break through terran defenses like nothing with just lings. Mid-game I'll have them upgraded, have air defenses at my base, and have a lair ready to switch into air units. I feel like zerg are a beastly race if you can maintain the tide of battle. Games I play 1v1 are 5-10 minutes. People that just mass units thinking they can out-mass their opponent probably lose a lot of games. People that make use of every unit in the game at the right time probably win a lot. Lings are a tier 1 unit, so use them first. Banelings are 1.5, so use them next. Mutas are 2, so use them next. I've never gotten past tier 2 with zerg yet though, so I'm kind of waiting for the day where i get to use those broodlords or whatever they're called. Will be epic nuts!

[Barcibus]

M&M overpowering you? Sentries, charge, and upgrading your units will all help. If they've gotten far enough where they can build medivacs then you've had time to build immortals. Immortals are protoss's ground powerhouse. If you don't get immortals, then you should get a colossus or two. Burns through a bag of M&Ms like I myself do (which is usually pretty fast lol)

Trouble with roaches? They're slow. While they can take a lot of hits they have no air attack and so long as you properly position detectors around your base you'll be fine against their moving burrowed raids. If you're really going to say that countering roaches with immortals or colossus is "too high a tier to be considered" then your crazy. Think of it this way... sure maybe your un-upgraded mass of zealots might not be able to get close to their counter-zealot roaches, but if you can fend off a few attacks using tactics to keep them boxed up for a bit, you can out-tech them. Once you've out-teched them you'll have the game.

I found it interesting that you said a player that goes just lings is asking for trouble, because I myself only go for lings early game, and after a variety of games I've found it to be the best zerg tactic. I can counter toss zealot rushes and break through terran defenses like nothing with just lings. Mid-game I'll have them upgraded, have air defenses at my base, and have a lair ready to switch into air units. I feel like zerg are a beastly race if you can maintain the tide of battle. Games I play 1v1 are 5-10 minutes. People that just mass units thinking they can out-mass their opponent probably lose a lot of games. People that make use of every unit in the game at the right time probably win a lot. Lings are a tier 1 unit, so use them first. Banelings are 1.5, so use them next. Mutas are 2, so use them next. I've never gotten past tier 2 with zerg yet though, so I'm kind of waiting for the day where i get to use those broodlords or whatever they're called. Will be epic nuts!
You don't play Protoss do you?

[Tehschoolbus]

You don't play Protoss do you?
Of course I do.

[Homersan]

did someone say roaches are slow?

i guess the ability to walk underground make them a little faster, i guess?

btw. how home ultralisk can burrow as well.. it doesn't make sense....

[Avian]

M&M overpowering you? Sentries, charge, and upgrading your units will all help. If they've gotten far enough where they can build medivacs then you've had time to build immortals. Immortals are protoss's ground powerhouse. If you don't get immortals, then you should get a colossus or two. Burns through a bag of M&Ms like I myself do (which is usually pretty fast lol)

Trouble with roaches? They're slow. While they can take a lot of hits they have no air attack and so long as you properly position detectors around your base you'll be fine against their moving burrowed raids. If you're really going to say that countering roaches with immortals or colossus is "too high a tier to be considered" then your crazy. Think of it this way... sure maybe your un-upgraded mass of zealots might not be able to get close to their counter-zealot roaches, but if you can fend off a few attacks using tactics to keep them boxed up for a bit, you can out-tech them. Once you've out-teched them you'll have the game.

I found it interesting that you said a player that goes just lings is asking for trouble, because I myself only go for lings early game, and after a variety of games I've found it to be the best zerg tactic. I can counter toss zealot rushes and break through terran defenses like nothing with just lings. Mid-game I'll have them upgraded, have air defenses at my base, and have a lair ready to switch into air units. I feel like zerg are a beastly race if you can maintain the tide of battle. Games I play 1v1 are 5-10 minutes. People that just mass units thinking they can out-mass their opponent probably lose a lot of games. People that make use of every unit in the game at the right time probably win a lot. Lings are a tier 1 unit, so use them first. Banelings are 1.5, so use them next. Mutas are 2, so use them next. I've never gotten past tier 2 with zerg yet though, so I'm kind of waiting for the day where i get to use those broodlords or whatever they're called. Will be epic nuts!

He's right. Roaches < Stalkers simply because of range. Fight at your choke point and Stalkers will win every time. Roaches only become better than stalkers at tier 2 - with a lair and research of burrow (50/50) and burrow movement (150/150) - not to mention the cost of the lair (150/100).

If you're teching with your opponent - I don't see why you can't have immortals by the time they have burrow movement.

[Avian]

did someone say roaches are slow?

i guess the ability to walk underground make them a little faster, i guess?

btw. how home ultralisk can burrow as well.. it doesn't make sense....

you've clearly never seen starship troopers...

[Tehschoolbus]

did someone say roaches are slow?

i guess the ability to walk underground make them a little faster, i guess?

btw. how home ultralisk can burrow as well.. it doesn't make sense....
I don't get what you mean. Yeah, roaches are pretty slow. Their underground movement makes them even slower, which is what I was mostly talking about by "slow" although they are slower than a couple other zerg units... lings, all air units, i think maybe hyrdas but I'm not sure.


He's right. Roaches < Stalkers simply because of range. Fight at your choke point and Stalkers will win every time. Roaches only become better than stalkers at tier 2 - with a lair and research of burrow (50/50) and burrow movement (150/150) - not to mention the cost of the lair (150/100).

If you're teching with your opponent - I don't see why you can't have immortals by the time they have burrow movement.
Plus most people seem to go overboard with the roaches, so they're essentially pushing tons of resources into low-tier units. If they play a balanced game then the issue of roaches being overpowered disappears. If they play a "im going to mass roaches cuz they sweet" then they get out-teched and lose to air or specialty weapons like the immortal, colossus, siege tank, ghost (can snipe-shoot units, i haven't tried this but it could be possible to build a group of them and micro-up an enemy force in a few seconds?), or ultralisk. Air units like the mutalisk, medivac, and void ray are easily accessible only a half tier later and can be used to support your armies and harass the enemy.

My only beef with them is that I love banelings but banelings suck against roaches >:{

[Robotronic]

I've actually had more trouble against Protoss than anything. QQing is unwarranted.

If you see a Terran player going Reapers, build Stalkers ASAP to counter them. It takes a strong Reaper rush a few minutes to properly get going, so you have time. If most people you're playing against are using Reapers, then build in anticipation of countering them from the get-go.

Also, scout, scout, scout. If you see them going M/M, the obvious counter is to speed tech air. M/M is screwed against early air. Marines are great and all, but if you bring in some ground support and focus the Marines, the Marauders can sit there helplessly as your air units pick them apart.

Also, Protoss have Zealot rush, which is extremely cheap. I've seen 2 Gateways being built right as I got my first Marine.

[Tehschoolbus]

I've actually had more trouble against Protoss than anything. QQing is unwarranted.

If you see a Terran player going Reapers, build Stalkers ASAP to counter them. It takes a strong Reaper rush a few minutes to properly get going, so you have time. If most people you're playing against are using Reapers, then build in anticipation of countering them from the get-go.

Also, scout, scout, scout. If you see them going M/M, the obvious counter is to speed tech air. M/M is screwed against early air. Marines are great and all, but if you bring in some ground support and focus the Marines, the Marauders can sit there helplessly as your air units pick them apart.

Also, Protoss have Zealot rush, which is extremely cheap. I've seen 2 Gateways being built right as I got my first Marine.
Reaper rushes are so silly. I keep learning new ways to deal with them every time I play. Zerg can get roaches or upgrade ling speed to fight them, and toss can get stalkers. Terran can just build a PF and be done with it.

That's a good way to counter M&M for sure. The only problem comes if you are undermanned and they upgraded shields and stims like they should have. The marine is one of the most cost-effective units I feel. You don't have to build much to get them, and if you upgrade them they're effective against anything late game when side-by-side with helions and medivacs.

Zealot rush is cheap but it's not unstoppable. You have to counter it properly. Terran can wall off and mass marines and marauders at tier 1.5 to counter it. Zerg can mass lings and combine them with tier 1.5 banelings if the zealot rush continues.

A player that sticks to a rush for too long will get bogged down as lower tier units do not stack up cost-wise against higher-tier units.

[Sokuryoku]

As a Terran player almost all of my losses (14 or 15 I don't remember off hand), have come from Protoss. Protoss is a tough match up for Terran due to Colossus / Immortal and early obs. Early obs shuts down 2 Starport Banshee + Hellion harass. Similarly, Col/Immortal shutdown M&M/Tank. It is imperative as Terran to get Ghosts. Without ghosts its extremely difficult to take out a Protoss who knows what they are doing.

I'm not that great, but I mostly play higher skilled Protoss and they have had no trouble taking me on. I'm currently coming up with some sort of quick FE into MM/Tank/Ghost. 2 Starport Banshee works very well when the Protoss doesn't get early obs, but I haven't run into a high level Protoss player that doesn't do that right now.

As for reapers, they are junk vs Protoss. Early game they get decimated by stalkers, mid-game getting a few cannons shuts down any harass. I find Hellion harass with the +10LDmg upgrade a lot better.

A quick cursory glance throughout all the Plat divisions shows that there is a lot more Protoss than either Zerg or Terran, and Terran is sparsely populated. I don't think any of us Terrans are playing the race correctly so I'm trying to come up with some....more creative builds.

Perhaps a MM/Thor build would work very well as you can snipe Colossus with the Thor using his special attack. The problem arises when Colossus get the range upgrade. By then you need cloaked Banshees and a few viking to snipe Obs.

My conclusion: Nothing is imbalanced yet, we just need to explore every build possible, and one thing is certain; Protoss is the most well balanced and "powerful" race at the moment.

[Tehschoolbus]

As a Terran player almost all of my losses (14 or 15 I don't remember off hand), have come from Protoss. Protoss is a tough match up for Terran due to Colossus / Immortal and early obs. Early obs shuts down 2 Starport Banshee + Hellion harass. Similarly, Col/Immortal shutdown M&M/Tank. It is imperative as Terran to get Ghosts. Without ghosts its extremely difficult to take out a Protoss who knows what they are doing.

I'm not that great, but I mostly play higher skilled Protoss and they have had no trouble taking me on. I'm currently coming up with some sort of quick FE into MM/Tank/Ghost. 2 Starport Banshee works very well when the Protoss doesn't get early obs, but I haven't run into a high level Protoss player that doesn't do that right now.

As for reapers, they are junk vs Protoss. Early game they get decimated by stalkers, mid-game getting a few cannons shuts down any harass. I find Hellion harass with the +10LDmg upgrade a lot better.

A quick cursory glance throughout all the Plat divisions shows that there is a lot more Protoss than either Zerg or Terran, and Terran is sparsely populated. I don't think any of us Terrans are playing the race correctly so I'm trying to come up with some....more creative builds.

Perhaps a MM/Thor build would work very well as you can snipe Colossus with the Thor using his special attack. The problem arises when Colossus get the range upgrade. By then you need cloaked Banshees and a few viking to snipe Obs.

My conclusion: Nothing is imbalanced yet, we just need to explore every build possible, and one thing is certain; Protoss is the most well balanced and "powerful" race at the moment.

Have you tried using maruaders and helions? The first battle report the terran player used this combo to start off the game. It's still a very powerful combination even now. Helions outclass zealots and marauders outclass stalkers. Reapers I find are good for using once you've got your enemy distracted. 4-6 of them can take down a nexus on their own if you can bury the rest of their force in a mess of marauders/helions/marines. Then you get air and lay down some M&Medivac harassment, toss in some ghosts to crack the immortals/colossus and you're good to go!