[Strat] [PvZ] Best Counter for Mutas

[Crazed]

Theres a thread going over on team liquid about the best counter protoss has to mass mutas but I figured I'd expand the knowledge pool a bit.

I still have only manage to win a handful of games when zerg players go mass mutas, only viable options so far seem to be sentries but they are slow and can get kited easily by the quick mutas.

Phoenixes are criminally useless against mutas (I'm beginning to question if they are a viable counter to anything)

So Thoughts? Ideas?

[Totz]

When I scout a muta spammer I make sure to get enough stalkers & sentries on the board, and throw in about 6 high templars w/storm. Despite how deadly this can be to a group of mutas, a seasoned zerg player still wins.

[Barcibus]

When I scout a muta spammer I make sure to get enough stalkers & sentries on the board, and throw in about 6 high templars w/storm. Despite how deadly this can be to a group of mutas, a seasoned zerg player still wins.
The only way Psi Storm is deadly to Mutas is if they sit there in the storm with Hold position so they don't kill your HT on accident.

[Darkness]

Theres a thread going over on team liquid about the best counter protoss has to mass mutas but I figured I'd expand the knowledge pool a bit.

I still have only manage to win a handful of games when zerg players go mass mutas, only viable options so far seem to be sentries but they are slow and can get kited easily by the quick mutas.

Phoenixes are criminally useless against mutas (I'm beginning to question if they are a viable counter to anything)

So Thoughts? Ideas?

Really the only thing you can do is pump out a crapload of Stalkers and try to end the game before they get too many Mutas. If you push at the right time you have a chance to succeed. If they get too many mutas out, you'll have to play too defensively and they'll outexpand you. I agree that Phoenixes are worthless, Protoss really need better AA options late game. Stalkers are fine for a little bit, but beyond that it all goes downhill.

[Totz]

The only way Psi Storm is deadly to Mutas is if they sit there in the storm with Hold position so they don't kill your HT on accident.

Exactly, so if they are running around while my stalkers & sentries are jackin em up, thats game.

[Barcibus]

Exactly, so if they are running around while my stalkers & sentries are jackin em up, thats game.
Game? You mean you win?

[Spiritwolf]

I have had good luck with timing attacks. Also, i have had good success with upgraded stalkers under a sentries shield.

[Totz]

Game? You mean you win?

Surely if they are spamming mutas, you take those out, you win the game. That's how sc2 works, right?

[Barcibus]

I have had good luck with timing attacks. Also, i have had good success with upgraded stalkers under a sentries shield.
The problem with the Mutas is they don't have to sit and fight Stalkers; they're so fast they can just move on to the next area to harass... harassing eventually becomes killing when they do it enough. If they see the Sentry shield, they can quickly move out of there and come back in a few if they want. Basically, ground units can't keep up with them.

I was steamrolling this Zerg player (prevented him from getting any expansion while I expanded) when a few mutas start showing up and just because of them almost turned the tide. He uses them against my supply lines but never engages my Stalkers, moving across the whole map over and over... even blinking doesn't help me keep up.

In the end I had taken every resource node but he managed to hold me off with a Muta swarm from 1 base. I won, but the game took FOREVER because he slowed down my production so hard (and it takes a ton of money and time for a Protoss to switch tech). In the it was Phoenixes that saved because I could sacrifice them to take out a few mutas that went out of range of my Stalkers (plus killing all the Overlords on the map). If he'd gotten just 1 expansion it would have been game over for me.

[Barcibus]

Surely if they are spamming mutas, you take those out, you win the game. That's how sc2 works, right?
I was just checking. Why would the Muta player dodge Psi Storms by doing the whole chicken-with-head-cut-off near your Stalkers+Sentries? Why wouldn't he just move someplace where your Stalkers couldn't reach yet, and pick off the first ones to arrive, rinse-repeat?

[Divine]

As discussed in the interview I posted from YGOSU, the guy mentions briefly about stalkers. Since Mutas are pretty gas heavy unit and your mineral collection rate is ALWASY faster than gas collection rate, all the remaining minerals go to zerglings (and additional expo).

So if you mass stalkers with sentry and high templars, you'd still need decent amount of zealots to fend against zerglings that should be naturally popping out since they have left over minerals.. if they don't I can see stalkers being able to fend off with sentry's Guardian Shield but zerglings + mutas especially past hive stage, will just roll over your stalkers without enough zealots.

Of course, problem with zealots is that you lose that much of stalkers and zealots are ground only... So a smart zerg will see you massing enough zealots and will choose to go pure mutas (late game) and if they see you don't have any zealots, zerglings will be added to the army as they have enough mineral to do so...

[Crazed]

I agree that Phoenixes are worthless, Protoss really need better AA options late game. Stalkers are fine for a little bit, but beyond that it all goes downhill.


I'm usually the last person to call for balance, because esports science has math and is confusing :P, but just from my experience I think there needs to be a change to offer at least a semi-viable option for toss against the mutas.

Stalkers: Not enough DPS to effectively counter
Senties: Can work but are too slow, get focus fired so you have to mass to be effective
Phoenix: Not enough DPS, get destroyed handily
Archon: Range/Splash too small, heavy gas investment
Templar: PSI storm too slow, Zerg player can dodge easily

There may be an effective combo of the above units I've missed, I've really only tried stalkers, sentry, pheonix together to see if a balanced approach would be better but it didn't fair too well.

I think the most most obvious choice would be to enhance Phoenix damage against biologics, this wouldnt buff their ability to take on capital ships but greatly enhance their ability to perform early-mid counter against mutas. Mutas themselves I think are fine in terms of strength wise independent of the fact they just dont have a counter.

I mean it may be warranted to give Phoenix an across the board damage buff, I just havent had enough even games get to tier 3 stuff to be able to offer an opinion on that.

*Edit*: I've also noticed Mutas being able to take out photon cannons pretty easily which has been somewhat frustrating if someone wants to chime in on that.

[Lilacore]

Am I the only one that misses Corsairs? Take out Phoenix and bring them back. Problem Solved!

[Lore]

Sentries are very effective vs mass Mutas. Guardian Shield owns + they do more damage over time to light units than Stalkers I think.

[Thebaron]

If Phoenixes still had their old overload ability it'd be GG for mutas. Sadly, it seems the Phoenix is meant to overlap with the Immortal, and have an ability for lifting big ground units into the air to be destroyed one at a time while the rest of the enemy ground force shoots up at your crappy air units :(

Bring back overload.

[Wingless]

Psi Storm is worthless against microd mutas. I will continually dodge stop hit your ht and dodge again. Youll be lucky to get a tick on me half the time someone casts while im in motion and misses completely. Psi storm much more effective against ground targets which move a bit slower.

Stalkers can counter mutas untill you get that mass of mutas. The only thing to do there is lots of stalker to try and hold the damage while going against the zerg economy. You need to stop the units from being produced. Even numbers stalkers are good but you cant let yourself get out numbered.

[Darkness]

Sentries are very effective vs mass Mutas. Guardian Shield owns + they do more damage over time to light units than Stalkers I think.


You'll never have enough gas to mass them though

[Aurum]

I got rocked by a protoss getting many archons (splash extra damage to biological), high templar, and stalkers.

I was not able to take down anything because mutas need to get so close that all the splash damage going on was too much. All I could do is slowly retreat and attack while my expansions/main base was being annihilated.

[Crazed]

I got rocked by a protoss getting many archons (splash extra damage to biological), high templar, and stalkers.

I was not able to take down anything because mutas need to get so close that all the splash damage going on was too much. All I could do is slowly retreat and attack while my expansions/main base was being annihilated.

Not to defeat my purpose of finding a counter for mutas :P but having mutas on different hotkeys and spreading them out just a little bit totally screws archons.

[Essentia]

Toss has no way to counter muta at this point, very frustrating. Stalkers are garbage vs air. Templar storm is too easy to dodge. archons are too expensive, and the phoenix LOL nothing needs to be said there.

Either buff phoenix a lot, or bring back corsair, OR possibly give archon much more splash damage.

[Darkness]

I got rocked by a protoss getting many archons (splash extra damage to biological), high templar, and stalkers.

I was not able to take down anything because mutas need to get so close that all the splash damage going on was too much. All I could do is slowly retreat and attack while my expansions/main base was being annihilated.

You're either doing something wrong micro wise or you're not expanding enough, especially if you let that toss get lots of archons.

[Divine]

I got rocked by a protoss getting many archons (splash extra damage to biological), high templar, and stalkers.

I was not able to take down anything because mutas need to get so close that all the splash damage going on was too much. All I could do is slowly retreat and attack while my expansions/main base was being annihilated.

How long did it take you to mass mutas that they had mass archons? You should have enough mutas and zerglings by the time they barely have few archons.. did they expand fast? did you expand fast?...

[Dusanh]

I've seen a number of Zerg go for fast Mutas in my 1v1 as Protoss and I can't remember loosing to it yet. I've found that the best strat is to scout a lot and hit the Zerg early with Zelots and Sentries if he is doing anything but mass Roaches (in which case you wait for Immortals to hit) A Proxy Pylon somewhere near the enemy base + Warp Gates can make this especially effective, as you can quickly change up your own army mix if the Zerg switches over to something else like mass Zerglings.

In short, the best counter I have seen to a Zerg who goes straight to Mutas, as with most fast tech strategies, is to hit him early and hard with T1 mass.

[Barcibus]

If the Zerg is trying to go straight to Mutas, he's doing it wrong unless he's playing against lower bracket opponents. Just because Mutas are so buff doesn't mean he can ignore earlier units.

[Crazed]

I've seen a number of Zerg go for fast Mutas in my 1v1 as Protoss and I can't remember loosing to it yet. I've found that the best strat is to scout a lot and hit the Zerg early with Zelots and Sentries if he is doing anything but mass Roaches (in which case you wait for Immortals to hit) A Proxy Pylon somewhere near the enemy base + Warp Gates can make this especially effective, as you can quickly change up your own army mix if the Zerg switches over to something else like mass Zerglings.

In short, the best counter I have seen to a Zerg who goes straight to Mutas, as with most fast tech strategies, is to hit him early and hard with T1 mass.


I mean I guess Blizz could just think we are supposed to counter it with scouting/tactics and not a specific unit.

[Worax]

As discussed in the interview I posted from YGOSU, the guy mentions briefly about stalkers. Since Mutas are pretty gas heavy unit and your mineral collection rate is ALWASY faster than gas collection rate, all the remaining minerals go to zerglings (and additional expo).

So if you mass stalkers with sentry and high templars, you'd still need decent amount of zealots to fend against zerglings that should be naturally popping out since they have left over minerals.. if they don't I can see stalkers being able to fend off with sentry's Guardian Shield but zerglings + mutas especially past hive stage, will just roll over your stalkers without enough zealots.

Of course, problem with zealots is that you lose that much of stalkers and zealots are ground only... So a smart zerg will see you massing enough zealots and will choose to go pure mutas (late game) and if they see you don't have any zealots, zerglings will be added to the army as they have enough mineral to do so...

I agree with this...

If your going to mass produce Mutalisks... You will end up with additional minerals, alot of additional minerals... What does that translate into? A crap load of zerglings... In my opinion Muta's + Zerglings is gg... Very difficult to counter both...

[Dusanh]

If the Zerg is trying to go straight to Mutas, he's doing it wrong unless he's playing against lower bracket opponents. Just because Mutas are so buff doesn't mean he can ignore earlier units.

Even if he is building some lower end units, If he is teching up for air, while you mass Tier 1, you are going to have the bigger army. Use it! When I see a spire go up, I launch an all out attack. As was said above, The biggest advangate of the Mutalisks is to decide weather or not a fight will happen at a given time and location. By pressing an all out attack on the Zerg's base, you force him to defend and fight you now or loose the game. You give him no choice other than to fight you before he has that critical mass of Mutalisks needed to win.

If the Zerg player has both more tech than you, and a bigger Tier 1 army, than you have more problems with your game than finding a way to counter Mutalisks. Such as a fundamental problem with your economy.

[Shikee]

I say get rid of the pheonix and bring back the scout, I love the scouts!

Or give Immortals aa or at least a aa upgrade for some other unit or one of all of your ideas.

[Barcibus]

Even if he is building some lower end units, If he is teching up for air, while you mass Tier 1, you are going to have the bigger army. Use it! When I see a spire go up, I launch an all out attack. As was said above, The biggest advangate of the Mutalisks is to decide weather or not a fight will happen at a given time and location. By pressing an all out attack on the Zerg's base, you force him to defend and fight you now or loose the game. You give him no choice other than to fight you before he has that critical mass of Mutalisks needed to win.

If the Zerg player has both more tech than you, and a bigger Tier 1 army, than you have more problems with your game than finding a way to counter Mutalisks. Such as a fundamental problem with your economy.
He should have been pressing YOU with Roaches and Zerglings before even considering the spire.

[Noroo]

The case for increasing stalker damage keeps growing, but honestly with muta and roach stats they way they are, stalker would need like at least +4 damage, which is so much of a buff it might upset some other stuff. The only way to beat zerg that utilizes these timing attacks with a smooth transition is to just completely outplay them.

[Azureflames]

Zeal+temp/archon is the counter. Make a few cannons to protect miners and push his base down.

[Divine]

seriously, all this discussion and just like everyone, I can only see phoenix being buffed as the only viable solution against mutas. I'm actually pretty sure (75%) blizzard will do this in the near future (hopefully) anyway as I predicted they'd nerf the early proxy gateway rush with chrono boost as they did so during last 2 patches... (may have over-done it)