Protoss Phoenix = pointless

[BeL]

What is the point of this unit anyway? It's mediocre at best as anti-air. It has no ground attack, and no other real function?

[Bibdy]

The Graviton Beam is hilarious to run into the middle of a Zerg base and kill the Queen, but yeah, they're really not very effective anti-air units considering their cost.

[Immortal]

Agreeing with this. I've used them a few times and they got demolished by other air units each time. The graviton beam doesn't make up for the poor anti-air capabilities.

[Eyelessone]

Kind of sounds like the Corsair...

[Tittus]

at least the corsair could harass, the phoenix is slow and weak. They die instantly and serve almost no purpose I agree.

[Wingless]

The only time Ive seen phoenix is when a toss builds 3 because he just realized Im sending 25 mutas to his base. Are they really that bad if they go even numbers against air units? I was just thinking beta needed to go on a bit more before I saw players use them for real.

[Eyelessone]

I'm retarded, I didn't mean the corsair... I meant the scout...

[Lbdwag]

I would agree that they are too slow. Maybe an upgrade to them would make them a better harassment unit

[Elarain]

The only time Ive seen phoenix is when a toss builds 3 because he just realized Im sending 25 mutas to his base. Are they really that bad if they go even numbers against air units? I was just thinking beta needed to go on a bit more before I saw players use them for real.

Yea they are. For instance, i built a pheonix and saw a terran transport outside my base. It took the terran a few seconds to realize I was attacking it, and then he clicked to move it back to base. My phoenix chased/shot at it the ENTIRE WAY back, without actually killing it. It turns out that 5 dmg per shot is pathetic. And apparently that transport was not light armored cause there is no way i was getting a bonus to it.

[Accordion]

They need the splash from Corsair.

Or better yet, since their attack speed is slow, make them like Valkyries.

[Ricespec]

Been playing protoss consistently against computers to figure out the units and the appropriate build order. It seems to me that protoss have very few choices for anti-air: Carriers, Phoenix, Stalker, Void Ray, Archon - correct me if i missed one please :).

Stalkers are early game harrassers imo, hence their 80shields 80hp - makes them rather fragile so i wouldn't select them for an anti air.

Carriers are pretty expensive and well, they're more like to be anti-air-ed by your opponent's air... makes sense right?

Void rays are useful in situations against carriers, buildings, bc's, thors, and tanks - the heavy armored guys with alot of hp that can sit there and take a beating. Since they only deal 2 dmg + 4 dmg to armored they deal six dmg - already they deal more dmg than phoenix (crazy huh?) the problem with them is that their attack needs to be constant, and i don't think they can maintain fire and movement at the same time (correct if wrong).

According to have I have been reading (and I do agree with it) the phoenix is both expensive and it deals extra damage to light armor units. Protoss units only carry light armor for infantry & phoenix - anything larger than infantry is considered "armored". In an air to air battle assuming the opposing team is also using an air unit that has light armor I doubt there are any differences in bonus dmg so techniquely whoever has the greater force should win. i.e. numbers = victory. The problem with this is the cost of the protoss air unit. Not sure how much terran air costs but if we assume the cost is similar then numbers determine victory. Assuming that the zerg philosphy of low cost units carries forth from SC1 then zerg will always have more units than you - solution? Archons deal aoe dmg + 10dmg to biological units, basically 35 dmg splash with archons.

So summary in my opinion (so it can and might be wrong)

Heavy air like carriers, bc's, mothership - void rays
Terran air - phoenix
Zerg air - archons.

Flame away lol.

-Ricespec, specced for ricing.

[Bibdy]

What happened to the super ROFLSTARS pretty light effect on the website? Did that get canned? :(

[Lightning]

i went massive air and got owned by a protoss because he had mother ship + carriers + void rays

i had some, i forgot the name, before the brood lords... corruptors? but wasn't able to take down the mothership.. oh yeah because he blackholed all of them -_-

[Viltor]

Another problem with the pheonix is its setup...

It is ONLY anti air, while (I may be forgetting something) the cheapie for the terrans can turn into a ground and fight ground (making it useful for massing) and the muta can too (I may be wrong, I think mutas still work on air units too).

Thus the only reason to build pheonix is when you expect an air attack. However, since it has no use other than anti air (unlike corruptors which can be morphed into a VERY useful unit for anti ground), if you mass these expecting an anti air rush, and it doesnt materialize, your out of luck and have no use for them... especially if they dont use air.

Net result, few protoss players use them due to their lack of durability, firepower, cost, and inflexibility.

Edit: To the above poster: The black hole is a vortex, its a CC now, it doesnt damage any units. However, a smart player will vortex a chunk of your force, kill whats left, let the vortex expire, and vortex another chunk, effectively reducing the size of each fight and reducing your ability to focus fire.

[Warlocksol]

What happened to the super ROFLSTARS pretty light effect on the website? Did that get canned? :(

Probably. That's really what the Pheonix needs though. Something like that would justify it (also would make it a great mutalisk killer I'd think).

That being said, it's beta and I remember some things changing pretty drastically in previous Blizzard RTS betas (WarCraft III beta especially, every build half the units had different spells).

[Mindless]

if it could shoot the unit in the air while using gravity beam it would be VERY useful.

[Warlocksol]

if it could shoot the unit in the air while using gravity beam it would be VERY useful.

Other stuff can. The unit essentially becomes an "air unit" at that point. I had about 4 Pheonixes and picked up a Stalker using it, and the other three could then attack the Stalker.

Still, being able to pick up a single ground unit seems very weak. Maybe if you could use it against something like a Seige Tank (esp in Seige mode), I could see it being useful, though I suspect it has some kind of unit size limit (honestly didn't check though).

[Bibdy]

Other stuff can. The unit essentially becomes an "air unit" at that point. I had about 4 Pheonixes and picked up a Stalker using it, and the other three could then attack the Stalker.

Still, being able to pick up a single ground unit seems very weak. Maybe if you could use it against something like a Seige Tank (esp in Seige mode), I could see it being useful, though I suspect it has some kind of unit size limit (honestly didn't check though).

No, you can use it on pretty much any ground unit. Apparently even things like Supply Depots if they're blocking your path.

Its a cool ability, just not that useful as an effective defense against ground-based anti-air units. You have to outnumber them with phoenixes to pick them all up and gun them down, but considering their cost, it isn't likely. Better for isolated situations where there might not be any defense, like rushing in, killing Zerg Queens, or peasants, and rushing out.

[Perseverance]

My teammate and I just recently got back our rank 1 2v2 Arranged Team in Platinum Division 2 by using phoenix's. Roughly a quarter of our 60+ games we have been turtling and I make a mothership + Carriers and he would mass phoenix/zelots and he would harrass with phoenix and protect my 2-3 carriers/mothership and we would win. We even beat the current rank 1 Platinum Division 1 team with this strat.

I understand the reason's why you think the phoenix sucks but when used by the right person against the right units they are amazing. Just like Immortals. throw them at a group of marines and they suck, micro 3-4 of them against 12+ roaches and they are awesome.

[Eliyah]

they're really not very effective anti-air units considering their cost.

he speaks the truth.

I also find vikings are not great. I had a bunch of marines and vikings then mutas came my way so i was smiling until i saw my army get decemated...antiair in general is lacking.

[Essentia]

he speaks the truth.

I also find vikings are not great. I had a bunch of marines and vikings then mutas came my way so i was smiling until i saw my army get decemated...antiair in general is lacking.

QFT

+1

[Moo]

he speaks the truth.

I also find vikings are not great. I had a bunch of marines and vikings then mutas came my way so i was smiling until i saw my army get decemated...antiair in general is lacking.

You should also consider that while Graviton Beamed, the target cannot move or attack. You've essentially stunned it for 10 seconds. Use the Phoenix to pick out the dangerous units in a mob, or remove the meat shields protecting the softer ranged units.

[Xel]

I've been waiting till I had played more games before adding to this thread. Originally I wanted to say that phoenix are horrible. Now that I've played a bit more I still don't like them. I need good counter to mutalisk and other mass air. My storms don't work anymore as they don't clump. Stalkers aren't very effective unless in really high numbers. Archons are good, but are too expensive and high on tree to be feasible. Granted phoneix is great for helping out on ground, but short of that and overlord hunting I can't get any good air use out of it. Im not wanting a single unit to ROFLSTOMP all air, but I need it to be useful. Can we give it more damage or reduce damage and rail shot that carries damage in a line like the hellion. Just an idea.

[Orlandu]

the corsair had splash

'nuff said., that thing DESTROYED air fleets if you massed about 15-20.

this phoenix is like a 5V cattle prod.

[Kraal]

I think considering the void ray and carrier attack types, the phoenix should stay (mostly) anti-air, but get an area attack. Even if it's not a primary attack, but something like an energy-consuming energy torpedo which deals splash damage

[Atralian]

Give them a targeted photon bomb, something near the functionality of seeker missile, but clearly not exactly the same.

[Refraxion]

Been playing protoss consistently against computers to figure out the units and the appropriate build order. It seems to me that protoss have very few choices for anti-air: Carriers, Phoenix, Stalker, Void Ray, Archon - correct me if i missed one please :).

Stalkers are early game harrassers imo, hence their 80shields 80hp - makes them rather fragile so i wouldn't select them for an anti air.

Carriers are pretty expensive and well, they're more like to be anti-air-ed by your opponent's air... makes sense right?

Void rays are useful in situations against carriers, buildings, bc's, thors, and tanks - the heavy armored guys with alot of hp that can sit there and take a beating. Since they only deal 2 dmg + 4 dmg to armored they deal six dmg - already they deal more dmg than phoenix (crazy huh?) the problem with them is that their attack needs to be constant, and i don't think they can maintain fire and movement at the same time (correct if wrong).

According to have I have been reading (and I do agree with it) the phoenix is both expensive and it deals extra damage to light armor units. Protoss units only carry light armor for infantry & phoenix - anything larger than infantry is considered "armored". In an air to air battle assuming the opposing team is also using an air unit that has light armor I doubt there are any differences in bonus dmg so techniquely whoever has the greater force should win. i.e. numbers = victory. The problem with this is the cost of the protoss air unit. Not sure how much terran air costs but if we assume the cost is similar then numbers determine victory. Assuming that the zerg philosphy of low cost units carries forth from SC1 then zerg will always have more units than you - solution? Archons deal aoe dmg + 10dmg to biological units, basically 35 dmg splash with archons.

So summary in my opinion (so it can and might be wrong)

Heavy air like carriers, bc's, mothership - void rays
Terran air - phoenix
Zerg air - archons.

Flame away lol.

-Ricespec, specced for ricing.

You forgot sentries, haha. :p. A healthy mix of sentries/stalkers dominate muta's IMO.

[Typhon]

i agree this unit is pointless

[Typhon]

You forgot sentries, haha. :p. A healthy mix of sentries/stalkers dominate muta's IMO.

Wow..... thats just a bad statement.

[Barcibus]

You should also consider that while Graviton Beamed, the target cannot move or attack. You've essentially stunned it for 10 seconds. Use the Phoenix to pick out the dangerous units in a mob, or remove the meat shields protecting the softer ranged units.
While the beam is cool, you should consider that your Phoenix is also "stunned" for those 10 seconds since it can't do anything either.

[Hulkbot]

Make the phoenix lift move researchable and then allow it to pick up a group of units rather than one at a time for utility. Then make its attack deal SLIGHT splash damage (so as not to overstep the mutalisk boundary).