Do phoenixes counter vikings?

[Unsuspected]

Blizzard's in-game helps lists phoenixes as a counter to vikings, but when comparing the stats of the two units, vikings seem to be do nearly triple the damage to phoenixes. Am I missing something?

[Alric]

That would be a no.

I just wanted to add, never ever build pheonixes.

[Crisischild]

You're not missing anything. Phoenix' only counter mutas'. And when I say Counter I mean a Phoenix can only take out 1.2 Mutas.

[Comtrav]

It's closer then the unit stats lead you to believe; IIRC, Phoenix does 9 DPS to (non-light) air, and Viking does like 10 DPS to (non-armored) air. Vikings will have a range advantage, but Phoenix are faster I believe. Phoenix have more hitpoints (120/60).

You won't 'counter' Vikings, but you'll probably trade 1:1 with them. If anyone ever built Phoenix, ever, in PvT I could actually tell you if that was really true.

[Hamshank]

I'm sure Blizz. is working on a solution for this because right now the Phoenix doesn't serve much of any purpose.

[Propanemilo]

The phoenix's gravity beam thing CAN be really cool and find tactical use on high-power/cost ground units (high templar, corruptor, etc), but that's about all they really offer.

[Unsuspected]

It's closer then the unit stats lead you to believe; IIRC, Phoenix does 9 DPS to (non-light) air, and Viking does like 10 DPS to (non-armored) air. Vikings will have a range advantage, but Phoenix are faster I believe. Phoenix have more hitpoints (120/60).

You won't 'counter' Vikings, but you'll probably trade 1:1 with them. If anyone ever built Phoenix, ever, in PvT I could actually tell you if that was really true.

Vikings do 10 (+4 to armored) and attack twice, thus they do 10x2 = 20.
Phoenix do 5 (+5 to light), and attack twice, thus they do 5x10 = 10.

Earlier I thought Phoenixes were armored and thus why I said triple damages. Let me correct that and say Vikings do double damage, but that doesn't change the fact that they are close to the same price (Phoenixes cost a little more minerals), but it seems you'd need to outnumber them nearly 2:1 to win. It would appear that Vikings counter Phoenixes, and not the other way around as stated in the in-game help.

[Terra]

I'm sure Blizz. is working on a solution for this because right now the Phoenix doesn't serve much of any purpose.

It, like the Scout, is a Starcraft tradition.

The base Protoss air unit blows.

[Colrath]

I use pheonix's all the time, but not where near as cheese as mas muta.

[Jam]

Right now Phoenix are support units used to take stronger enemies out of the game, and nothing else. Their damage is quite frankly pathetic.
Warp Rays are more effective than them in every venue. And if you can somehow get to Carriers, then they trump Phoenix like a shoe trumps a spider.

They really are a very weak unit for their cost. Such a shame too- they have a lot of potential with their very high movement speed.
Perhaps they need a weaker version of their older Overload ability. Perhaps it attacks a maximum of 5 units at once per phoenix in quick succession? I dunno.

[Yaz]

Phoenix certainly isn't terribly strong. By counter though I think all blizzard means is it's an appropriate unit to try to use to counter them, not that it's guaranteed win over that unit. Phoenix has three advantages you could say over the viking (the viking has it's own):

1) They move faster making them better for hit and run tactics. If vikings find themselves losing a fight to phoenixes then they're gone as they can't get away. Phoenixes in same situation can outrun vikings or other fleeing forces.

2) Phoenix has more HP including shields that regen. This again adds to their survivability as they'll stand a better chance getting out of a bad situation and can last a bit longer in a toe to toe fight.

3) Graviton Beam when microed well can be quite useful for quickly eliminating high value targets. Want to piss of a zerg? Make a couple phoenixes and take graviton and wipe out their queen(s).

Ultimately though I think the phoenix is much more designed to be used vs zerg than vs terran which fits with it's +damage vs light as opposed to armored units. They can be used but probably void rays are a better option.

[Galen]

All I know is somethin' needs to be done about mutalisks. Both protoss and terran have to spend ridiculous resources just to deal with them. It takes a combination of units to counter a muta blob, couple that with the zergs ability recover their losses faster than any other means GG once mutas are gettin pumped out.

[Chung]

Phoenixes have much faster attack speed even though they are both listed as "fast". 1v1, a phoenix will defeat a viking with about 40 hp left.

[Unsuspected]

Phoenixes have much faster attack speed even though they are both listed as "fast". 1v1, a phoenix will defeat a viking with about 40 hp left.

Oh, looks like I was missing something quite significant. Thanks a lot!
It would be nice if Blizzard allowed beta testers to invite a friend. That way we'd have someone to help us test these kind of things out.

[Yaz]

Well I'm up for testing things out with people if they want. I've offered a few times on here but nobody has ever taken me up on it. Just get in touch with me in game or something. I play Zerg mostly but Terran also on occasion.

[Nick]

All I know is somethin' needs to be done about mutalisks. Both protoss and terran have to spend ridiculous resources just to deal with them. It takes a combination of units to counter a muta blob, couple that with the zergs ability recover their losses faster than any other means GG once mutas are gettin pumped out.

mass rines with stims is your best bet... couple of barracks with reactors and you should be fine, only issue is mobility
all i know is i miss goliaths dearly

[Tehschoolbus]

Oh, looks like I was missing something quite significant. Thanks a lot!
It would be nice if Blizzard allowed beta testers to invite a friend. That way we'd have someone to help us test these kind of things out.

You can make new friends while you wait. The internets really aren't so scarey :)

[Garrett]

There seems to be alot of units listed as counters but are not really a counter. It is pretty frustrating

[Malkgray]

OK now granted I'm in copper league and play against fellow noobs, but I find I can use phoenixes to counter void rays. It's because they build faster, are cheaper, and when they outnumber the void rays, they can take them down before the void rays get their damage up enough. They also work against zerg but you have to start building them early enough (something I'm still not good at because quite frankly, I just don't get to face zerg often enough to practice). I haven't been able to get them to work against terran but I think it's because the terran I fight always go straight to battlecruisers and phoenixes die fast against those.

So at least for people at my skill level, the pheonixes fit right in with the tier they're supposed to be in and rightfully get beaten down by tier 3.

[Bibdy]

Not really. Void Rays tend to do a better job.

[Coldvoltage]

The only use i've had for the phoenix is to rush one out early against zerg to take out his overlords. It's usually semi effective and I can kill off the few that are camped around the map. And if he's not very skilled, maybe 1 or 2 in his base.

[Malkgray]

Not really. Void Rays tend to do a better job.

I don't waste my void rays on their void rays, though. I send my void rays to their buildings.

[Bibdy]

I don't waste my void rays on their void rays, though. I send my void rays to their buildings.

Wait, what? Weren't we talking about Vikings?

[Malkgray]

Wait, what? Weren't we talking about Vikings?

I thought the discussion had moved on to pheonixes in general and I posted about how I use them in general, and you posted under me so I thought you responded to me. *shrug*

[Sonanko]

If I get Toss out of the Random I usually add a couple pheonixes just for grav beam to take some of the enemy's bigger threats in a battle. Works pretty well as a support unit in that regard.

[Bibdy]

I thought the discussion had moved on to pheonixes in general and I posted about how I use them in general, and you posted under me so I thought you responded to me. *shrug*

Oh, well yeah you'd definitely use Phoenixes to kill Void Rays. They can easily break a chain, since they move so godamn fast and, while Phoenixes do 50% damage to Void Rays, Void Rays deal only 33% damage to Phoenixes.

Then you can use those Phoenixes for Probe harassment, Collossi-killing and Stalker/Immortal disabling.

[Malkgray]

Oh, well yeah you'd definitely use Phoenixes to kill Void Rays. They can easily break a chain, since they move so godamn fast and, while Phoenixes do 50% damage to Void Rays, Void Rays deal only 33% damage to Phoenixes.

Then you can use those Phoenixes for Probe harassment, Collossi-killing and Stalker/Immortal disabling.

Yeah I'm still experimenting with them and trying to figure out when I can and can't use them. So far I'm finding that I'm doing rather poorly against terran, lol, but it's because they always see my pheonixes and hurry up and make battlecruisers. Still working on it. I need to learn that after I win a battle versus vikings, I have to start making something else because that's what the opponent is going to do as well (unless I have enough of them left to actually kill off their SCVs, provided they didn't turret the place like mad).

[Bibdy]

Phoenixes aren't very useful against Terrans (so its a good thing that Void Rays are more effective against Vikings). Its more of an anti-Zerg or Protoss unit. They're decent against Zerg, since an equal number of Phoenixes (costing an equal amount of gas) will roflstomp all over Mutalisks and then you can harass their Overlords, Queens and Drones, but not too useful beyond that, if they're fielding Hydralisks. They can kill Hydras pretty quick, but they're going to be useless against a mass of Hydras.

I've wanted to try fielding Dark Templar recently, knowing he'll obviously bring an Overseer, but using a cluster of Phoenixes to quickly run in, assassinate the Overseer and run out, leaving the Dark Templar to murder everything unscathed. I honestly can't imagine a good counter against that, for Zerg, besides bringing an assload of Overseers.

They're fricking amazing in PvP matches, though. Learned my lesson quick when a Protoss opponent picked up all my Immortals and he roflstomped my army with a handful of Collossi and Stalkers.

[Malkgray]

I've been itching to toy with dark templars too but I'm not good enough yet, lol.