Protoss: High Templar Utility

[Divine]

So I haven't seen too much utility of High templars yet and I'm the one who asked about if they're seeing people go other tech.

Have you owned with high templars? Do you take this tech often over robotics or air? Which group of enemy units did you see when you scouted that made you decide to go high templars? or do you just get that tech anyway?

PS: I've seen my share of dark templars but just wondering about HTs

[Airyina]

In my opinion High Templars are completely useless. The Mineral/Gas cost is too high to bother using them, not to mention you have to research all of their abilities. The lightning storm does little to no damage, as units can just move out of it right away. I tried a fairly large group of them once (10) with about 15 stalkers vs a group of 50 or so marines, and even with all the lightning storms the marines won. 5 or 6 carriers can kill 50+ marines with ease. Not worth using IMO! They need a major buff or mineral/gas cost reduction. The same goes for Archons, another useless unit, too weak for the cost.

[VoiD]

I've gone back and forth with these. I've had several games where psi storm has been great for crowd control (Terran M&M, Zerg roachs & hydras). I'm still getting used to the fact that the cast area is SO small but does much quicker damage than SC1. On the minus side I've found getting to ht + psi storm is much harder in SC2 due to the quicker game tempo.

[Crisischild]

Unless your opponent is asleep at the keyboard they're pretty useless.

[Mut]

In my opinion High Templars are completely useless. The Mineral/Gas cost is too high to bother using them, not to mention you have to research all of their abilities. The lightning storm does little to no damage, as units can just move out of it right away. I tried a fairly large group of them once (10) with about 15 stalkers vs a group of 50 or so marines, and even with all the lightning storms the marines won. 5 or 6 carriers can kill 50+ marines with ease. Not worth using IMO! They need a major buff or mineral/gas cost reduction. The same goes for Archons, another useless unit, too weak for the cost.

huh. o.o, storm dominates marines...

[Steverweaver]

Check this vid.. Psi storm Rules!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oseRVPx-9X0&feature=related

[Hazelroo]

Check this vid.. Psi storm Rules!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oseRVPx-9X0&feature=related
vouch this vid

[Crisischild]

Check this vid.. Psi storm Rules!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oseRVPx-9X0&feature=related

It's been stated in the comments a million times. The Zerg was making NO effort to move out of storm. If he had microed at all he would have shut the 'Toss down and ended the game a hell of a lot sooner.

[Range]

Truly, high templars are worth it.. you spend 50/200 (im geussing) and buy storm and you get maybe 3.. 300$ 600gas idk and you kill about 1k/1kgas with them... they are great for killing zerg or terran bio and very good for warping in on some1's mineral field and storming the shiz out of em workers..

[Steverweaver]

Truly, high templars are worth it.. you spend 50/200 (im geussing) and buy storm and you get maybe 3.. 300$ 600gas idk and you kill about 1k/1kgas with them... they are great for killing zerg or terran bio and very good for warping in on some1's mineral field and storming the shiz out of em workers..

The only prob with warping them in, is that they don't have 75 energy when they warp in.. I think they should fix that, then they will be used a lot more

[Bibdy]

I've been teching Psi Storm instead of Collossi for my last couple of games and...wow. #!%! is amazing.

[Anon]

The only prob with warping them in, is that they don't have 75 energy when they warp in.. I think they should fix that, then they will be used a lot more

they do if you research their energy upgrade

[Steverweaver]

they do if you research their energy upgrade

really? sweet!! thanks for that.. I'm going to try it now

[Newcomplex]

I've used them once, in the single zerg game that made it until lategame without either of us winning.

I lost that game through sheer gayness, after taking out all his stuff 5 eggs burst open and ultralisks came out. I didn't bother macroing more expansions, so i had zero cash, because I didn't really think I'd need it.

Their pretty good against mutas. Really your only viable counter to them if they mass.

[Uriel]

I used them for a while, but realized that a lot of people are completely clueless about countering colossi, and you can't really go both. I imagine in gold/plat now, and probably even lower as people figure out how to counter colossi better, templar will see a lot more use. Even more so if archons get a bit of love.

[Soli]

The big problem is that there is no new massable unit unlocked in the whole 'templar path'. DTs are basically a rush-or-nothing trick - they are terrible if the enemy has adequate detection, I only use them occasionally to try to sneak an easy win against Roach massers who neglect to get Overseers, or Toss players who try to skip the Robotics Bay line entirely and won't have an obs handy. HTs are a support caster mostly valued for Psi Storm, which is too micro intensive for most players (it takes pretty good micro skills to make them at all useful in a competitive match - if you're simply mediocre with them they will be FAR less efficient than the same resources spent teching to Colossi or massing Gateway units or whatever else you might have tried. Archons, as the devs said themselves in the Twitter Q&A session earlier today, are seen as a way to use up Templars that have outlived their utility (HTs with no mana, DTs once your opponent wises up and gets detectors), not a viable unit to build Templars solely to produce en masse. So, aside from a way to use up leftover DTs after a failed DT rush, the main role for Archons requires you not only to invest in this micro intensive support caster, but to use them well enough to burn through all their mana and then keep them alive to fuse after a battle / back at base (still takes too long to do mid-fight, after all).

If they made Archon fusing close to instant (no more than 3-4 seconds) and maybe added some combat-useful effect when fusing - an AoE damage or debuff effect, perhaps - then I could see Templars being a much more tempting option and interesting strategic tool. The effect could even scale based on the amount of mana the Templars had left when fusing, and/or whether it was 2 HTs, 2 DTs or one of each that fused... As it stands, it seems like the fuse ability is there just for nostalgia's sake, for the most part, and that Archons as they seem to be designed and intended to be used now are almost guaranteed to be even less common than Infestors or Sensor Towers - a unit that is occasionally useful for the 'gosu' micro-proficient competitive players and pretty much an auto-loss for any 'regular' or (semi-)casual player who decides to try using them. I've tried 'em myself, I've had allies try 'em, and I've played against players who tried 'em... I have yet to see a Protoss player make an Archon before the game was already basically decided anyway and go on to win the match. I've never made it to Platinum in 1v1 *or* 2v2, so I'll trust the devs when they say Templars and Archons are both more used in higher level play... Anyway, I would be very happy to see some sort of redesign here, either a new unit to make this tech path more appealing or something like the change I described above to turn Archons from a last ditch way to get a little more utility out of 'used up' Templars to another interesting strategic mechanic to spur on-the-fly tactical decisions - should I save my HTs for Psi Storms and Feedback, or fuse them with more mana unspent for a bigger immediate burst of dps/debuff/whatever?

Personally, I would be fine with just buffing Archons as much as possible without them becoming imbalanced in higher level play, hopefully to the point of making Archon massing at least not universally a terrible idea.

[Wyrd]

Anytime someone tried using HT against me, I had ghosts, so it was wasn't really a point. I can imagine they would be scary if I didn't though.

[AKIRA]

Anytime someone tried using HT against me, I had ghosts, so it was wasn't really a point. I can imagine they would be scary if I didn't though.

There is this, and the fact that not a lot of people have seen it, and once they realize you have a window of opportunity to react, it isn't nearly as intimidating. Sure you can warp in and harass their economy but is that REALLY worth the time and minerals spent to do that? It would be much easier to work with DT which will (until they have detection) be able to remain in their base and harass, plus provide decent defensive and offensive capabilities. While Psi storm IS nice when it gets off, things like EMP and simply being cautious and aware of it coming will help you avoid it.

I can imagine a good strat with a couple of sentries - boxing in units and then psi storming them when they're locket in, or when you've got a bunch of zealots clustered around some units. But these are very specific and the micro required to pull off a force field trap and then psi storm is going to leave other parts of your base and game lacking.

If psi storm was instant like in SC1 then it would probably get a lot more use as you could effectively use it against rushes and similar, but a good player will just run away and/or counter the templar with something like emp.

[Bibdy]

How is Psi Storm not instant?

The damn spell is amazing. I don't know what people's problem is with it. It does 80 damage in 4 seconds. Multiple Psi-Storms spread throughout your opponent's force is absolutely @!%%in devastating.

[Zasz]

How is Psi Storm not instant?

The damn spell is amazing. I don't know what people's problem is with it. It does 80 damage in 4 seconds. Multiple Psi-Storms spread throughout your opponent's force is absolutely @!%%in devastating.

This. Almost every replay I watch of top Protoss in PvT or PvZ has pretty extensive Psi Storm use, and it's nuts. Most of the time this can pull them out of a very overwhelmed situation because 4-5 HT can kill 40 or so Marines/Hydralisks.

It's good, trust me.

[Entropia]

I had really good success yesterday trying out HTs for certain scenarios.

psy storm vs MM = win
feedback vs medvac or sentry = win

[Suicidemech]

I had really good success yesterday trying out HTs for certain scenarios.

psy storm vs MM = win
feedback vs medvac or sentry = win

Try feedback on a queen. Most zerg players including myself don't have perfect micro with her, and she can end up with full energy.

[Mnijykmirl]

I've stomped down 3 base robotics toss, immortal or collosus, on 2 base T. I've had to grind out long wins as 4 base T vs. 2 base templar toss. EMP and a little air support and whatever M3 I've got beats robo and stargate techs. It seems I can EMP every chance I have with the energy, but my M3 is still melting to a well placed psi storm. It puts way harder micro requirements on me as T player than anything else.

[Messana]

So I haven't seen too much utility of High templars yet and I'm the one who asked about if they're seeing people go other tech.

Have you owned with high templars? Do you take this tech often over robotics or air? Which group of enemy units did you see when you scouted that made you decide to go high templars? or do you just get that tech anyway?

PS: I've seen my share of dark templars but just wondering about HTs

I use the templar tech when facing terran. Charging zealots + high templar + sentries + dark templar. Very diverse and deadly army.

[Messana]

In my opinion High Templars are completely useless. The Mineral/Gas cost is too high to bother using them, not to mention you have to research all of their abilities. The lightning storm does little to no damage, as units can just move out of it right away. I tried a fairly large group of them once (10) with about 15 stalkers vs a group of 50 or so marines, and even with all the lightning storms the marines won. 5 or 6 carriers can kill 50+ marines with ease. Not worth using IMO! They need a major buff or mineral/gas cost reduction. The same goes for Archons, another useless unit, too weak for the cost.

Quoted for absolute false.

[Messana]

The only prob with warping them in, is that they don't have 75 energy when they warp in.. I think they should fix that, then they will be used a lot more

You can upgrade them to start with as much energy.

[Messana]

I' m sorry but the people saying that HT are useless or are not worth it simply must be in silver league or lower. High Templar are absolutely great if used correctly. There is a reason they are seeing high (and effective) use in the higher leagues.

[Crimson]

I think the secret to toss is to get a couple colossus and like 4-5 HT. Then you will see the power of both units storm brings marines down to 1 shot range for the colossus.

[Drayen]

It's been stated in the comments a million times. The Zerg was making NO effort to move out of storm. If he had microed at all he would have shut the 'Toss down and ended the game a hell of a lot sooner.

even if you move out of storm, you still take singnificant damage and youre not attacking while your opponent is continually attacking..

watched the video, the zerg did move, but wherever he moved a new psi storm appeared and his hydra just disappeared.

[Megabytten]

I think the secret to toss is to get a couple colossus and like 4-5 HT. Then you will see the power of both units storm brings marines down to 1 shot range for the colossus.

Yes, I've found High Templars indispensable against terrans midgame. Marauders can make short work of Colossi, even if they're grouped up enough to do splash damage, and a small group of valks/banshees will kill the Colossi as well. Adding HTs into the mix (2-3) allows you to destroy their entire marauder cluster and maybe 1 of vikings as well while your colossi/stalkers/zealots/whatever clean up the rest. Mass colossi with a few zealots and stalkers supported by 2-3 HT is the best army a protoss can field.