Terran walls, so you Zerg FE... so he kills u

[Tierdal]

with marines.

Im sorry but how is this balanced.

If I FE he jsut brings his marines with him and kills me

If I don't expand and we both macro up his army is superior without me having the abiltiy to out macro with an early expansion.


So I can get to him and I also have no map control....

This doesnt seem fair

[Armleg]

You should be able to out expand him if he's going to turtle up at his main with no intention of getting an expo. Just be sure to scout around with OLs, if he isn't expanding at all, just wait til he's out of minerals and win.

[Joeorange]

with marines.

Im sorry but how is this balanced.

If I FE he jsut brings his marines with him and kills me

If I don't expand and we both macro up his army is superior without me having the abiltiy to out macro with an early expansion.


So I can get to him and I also have no map control....

This doesnt seem fair


Are you building units while you FE? I have not had a lot of issues FE with Zerg vs Terran. I'll build a S-ton of Lings and toss down some defense if I think he is rushing. BTW: You should know he is rushing you or not.

By walling off he is giving you the go to start to control the map.

[Arkan]

I've heard half a dozen banelings will blow up a supply depo easily. Try that?

[Shurimpu]

I've heard half a dozen banelings will blow up a supply depo easily. Try that?Banelings do 80 damage SPLASH to buildings. If I recall a depot has 350. Even just 5 will demolish a depot wall, they're powerful in small numbers

Speaking from experience >>

[Messana]

Its balanced because you should be able to handle the rush. If you can't, its not the game - its you.

[Roirrawa]

the term "wall" doesnt mean they are building a supply wall. the term "wall" means they are walling off their front AND fast teching to something other than tier 1.
if a t is simply walling off the front and going 3 raxx rine push... thats not a technical "wall" strat. its a early push strat...

every terran is going to wall their front to keep their rather fragile marines from being overrun and the ability to defend against a superior force for basically positioning your buildings a certain way? yes please. who wouldnt take advantage of that?

there are different kinds of strats terrans use after they wall their ramp. just because they wall their front doesnt mean you automatically FE... this isnt exactly rock paper scissors.

just because someone says "oh yea if they wall just FE" doesnt mean it always works. the game would be rather droll if you always do B when opponent does A and C if he does B... never ending scripted play.

in the end, its not hte game, its you.

[Caustic]

So your saying that its not fair that Terran players can wall up so they can't be rushed? I'm sorry but I don't see the basis of your arguement here. Remember strategy basics 101, Rush > Boom > Turtle > Rush. If he's walling himself in then you should be expanding all over the map to eventually overwhelm and slaughter him.

[Namhcir]

with marines.

Im sorry but how is this balanced.

If I FE he jsut brings his marines with him and kills me

If I don't expand and we both macro up his army is superior without me having the abiltiy to out macro with an early expansion.


So I can get to him and I also have no map control....

This doesnt seem fair


spawning pool + hatchery... your lings are cheap and as long as you have 25% more lings than he has marines he cant stop u... also u can get a queen b4 u fe in conjunction with lings... but im only able to stop a top end zergs fe 10-20% of the time, i usually just bring marines to make him slow down his econ making lings, then come back for a early-mid game push

[Drayen]

So your saying that its not fair that Terran players can wall up so they can't be rushed? I'm sorry but I don't see the basis of your arguement here. Remember strategy basics 101, Rush > Boom > Turtle > Rush. If he's walling himself in then you should be expanding all over the map to eventually overwhelm and slaughter him.

the terran wall isnt a real wall.. its just their normal buildings theyre putting in the form of a wall, they can wall AND rush and not suffer in any way.

By the way, what is "Boom" supposed to be?

[Ripa]

with marines.

Im sorry but how is this balanced.

If I FE he just brings his marines with him and kills me

If I don't expand and we both macro up his army is superior without me having the abiltiy to out macro with an early expansion.


So I can get to him and I also have no map control....

This doesnt seem fair


I have had yet to have a problem with terrens walls marines and marauders. if he walls and you FE, get at the very least 1 gas and tech into banelings. with banelings. build a creep tumor that extends past your exp towards the mid of map so your banelings move quicker and if he attacks with marines or m&m he has to travel up the creep. and send a few lings as targets in first or roaches if u can, he should barely be able to outrun any of your units if at all on the stuff (especially if u get all your speed upgrades.). If u use better unit control banelings and zerglings beat the crap out of m&m rather easily. using the banelings makes the dropships pretty useless as well, especially with tier 2 and burrow.

If he uses tanks, get infestors and spawn the infested in the middle of his marines so the tanks blow up everything. run banelings into his supply depot walls, if he uses tanks try to get in with nydus, if he has that covered use overlords as dropships.

Theres lots of options and because banelings are somewhat expensive the better u use them the better u make out. U only need a few of them on a huge gorup of marines, make some spine crawlers too :)

[Yaz]

the term "wall" doesnt mean they are building a supply wall. the term "wall" means they are walling off their front AND fast teching to something other than tier 1.
if a t is simply walling off the front and going 3 raxx rine push... thats not a technical "wall" strat. its a early push strat...

every terran is going to wall their front to keep their rather fragile marines from being overrun and the ability to defend against a superior force for basically positioning your buildings a certain way? yes please. who wouldnt take advantage of that?

there are different kinds of strats terrans use after they wall their ramp. just because they wall their front doesnt mean you automatically FE... this isnt exactly rock paper scissors.

just because someone says "oh yea if they wall just FE" doesnt mean it always works. the game would be rather droll if you always do B when opponent does A and C if he does B... never ending scripted play.

in the end, its not hte game, its you.

Correct. Walling the front is no indication of what a T player is going to do. You should have scouted earlier with a drone to view inside the base to get a better idea of what he's building and in what order. If he's going for a rush you should not be FEing but instead building appropriately to defend and counter/expand.

[Roirrawa]

wow richman, youre doing pretty good in your division. with idra leading your division too haha.

i started my plat division at rank 9 or so and i plumetted to 25~ >_> Been trying different fast tech builds and most of them are absolutely horrendous haha. I may need to go back to straight mid game m2 push rotating into an m3 with 2 fac tank pump.~ >_>

[Proletaria]

By the way, what is "Boom" supposed to be?

Expansion in an attempt to get the upper hand later in the game.

Like the earlier post said: Rush usually kills an early expander, Early expansion usually leads to an overwhelmed turtle (unless ofc he is fast teching and you have no ready counter units to it), Turtled bases destroy a potential rush (and since a rush weakens your long term economy... you see where this is going?).

So long as you scout enough you should be able to tell which way your opponent is leaning. Modify your own strategy from there. At best, you'll see exactly what you need to do. At worst, you'll both be playing conservative.

[Typho]

I personally find that baneling works really well agains walled terran. Last game my opponent tried to "rush" my FE w/ marines, I sent 4 banelings on his way and it blew up a dozen of his marines.

On the time that he went back and turtle, I sent a dozen of my banelings, half of which blew up his wall and the other half of which decimated his marines. A cleanup squad of lings went and destroyed their scvs.

If on the other hand he went marauders instead, just have enough banelings to bust up his wall and the rest zerglings to mop up the unprotected marauders.

[Namhcir]

wow richman, youre doing pretty good in your division. with idra leading your division too haha.

i started my plat division at rank 9 or so and i plumetted to 25~ >_> Been trying different fast tech builds and most of them are absolutely horrendous haha. I may need to go back to straight mid game m2 push rotating into an m3 with 2 fac tank pump.~ >_>



haha thanks, ive been doing good against toss lately so its helped.. i wen ton a huge medicrity streak last weekend (like 15-12) as i played idra/cruncher/smuft/kiwikaki/course/oversky like 20 games total between em lol

But luckily i revamped my toss, especially after kiwi %#**d me quite a few times and ive been doing really good ever since vs. em... I need to work ghosts into my strats more often still but other than that im doing alright. Ghosts + tanks would be really sick tho i think, havent tried it yet tho

[Mut]

Are you building units while you FE? I have not had a lot of issues FE with Zerg vs Terran. I'll build a S-ton of Lings and toss down some defense if I think he is rushing. BTW: You should know he is rushing you or not.

By walling off he is giving you the go to start to control the map.

I'm sorry, but what?

Walling off tells you NOTHING about what terran is doing. It's a standard part of the build order. It doesn't set them back at all. It does not block them in. It only blocks you out.

Behind that wall they can be massing m&m, then drop the wall and stomp you. My advice is an early roach push. At the very least you can harrass the wall. It's the weak point if you focus the wall itself. You can steal free kills on supply depots then just back off. While doing that expand.

Whatever you do, Do not believe the wall tells you anything about their strategy. It is a natural part of the build order. The wall itself IS an exposed weakness though. You'll notice some terran players don't build walls against other terran players specifically because they can walk up with m&m out of range of your m&m and just kill your wall. Then either push or fall back for free kills at no cost.

[Joeorange]

I'm sorry, but what?

Walling off tells you NOTHING about what terran is doing. It's a standard part of the build order. It doesn't set them back at all. It does not block them in. It only blocks you out.I didn't say that you know exactly what the terran is doing. I never even implied that....

Zergling outside his choke, at each Watch Tower, and any near by expansions and you have more knowledge of what is happening over the entire map than he does, thus you have map control. He starts putting down supply depots and moving units out, you have more than enough time to build a few more lings and or static D. He doesn't; you continue on your marry way building and scouting

But yeah........

[Roirrawa]

richman, you mind putting up some of your replays for me? the meta is changing so fast and I really don't have the time to keep up in games to keep up with the flow of the meta :|

i have about 170 games so far and even that was done during my breaks and late at night sacrificing sleep before work the next morning haha.

an ftp or maybe even direct upload through some IM service would be great if possible >_>

[Tierdal]

How do you KNOW if he is going to rush?

this is what happens..

I scout I see ihm building a baracks, marine kills my drone or i run away

then i try to build

he just build marines comes over kills all my lings and end the game


If I build lots of lings and defense he just expands and kills me witgh higher tech units since im now behind with a bunch of lings and no tech

[Roirrawa]

You know by intuition through experience. Did you look at his gas? did he take both gas? did he take none? does he have 6 workers on both gas or 3 on 1 or only 2 on 1? did he pull workers off gas? only mineral?

these are different indicators on what kind of strat they are going to employ.

[Tierdal]

You know by intuition through experience. Did you look at his gas? did he take both gas? did he take none? does he have 6 workers on both gas or 3 on 1 or only 2 on 1? did he pull workers off gas? only mineral?

these are different indicators on what kind of strat they are going to employ.

you can onyl see what hes doing for a fraction f a second then ur drone dies

[Hatch]

This is why i love Protoss. Just Phase Prisim into their base and warp them in....

[Disastorm]

Zerg FE is no longer safe (like it was in starcraft 1). Against all 3 matchups, a FE can be punished, even if the opponent is turtling or blocking in their base, if they spot the FE they can quickly transition to some kind of early pressure that will break the FE 99% of the time, no matter what build they are using. Unless some kind of new methods become known or new patches change the game, I do not think FE will be a standard zerg build in Starcraft 2.

However, just because you can't FE doesnt mean you can't expand before your opponent. You can still get an early expansion, just not a "fast" one. If you see Overskys games (at least the ones I've seen) he does not FE, he always gets a spawning pool before getting his expansion.

Its balanced because you should be able to handle the rush. If you can't, its not the game - its you.

Actually, all races can destroy a FE to the point where its not defendable without losing all your drones/econ and losing the game anyway.

[Roirrawa]

I will half agree with this... I was having this discussion with a friend IRL the other day and its just not possible to defend a FE against a toss without a minimum of 4 sunks. and even then, youll need lings to soak damage as well.

the main benefit of having a FE go off, is that if you actually get your FE off the ground, your opponent HAS to take an expo or theyre going to get over run mid game.

its a bit of a gamble, but if you can get it off... uh oh :X

if your drone isnt surviving more than a second while scouting... unless they have their wall up already, youre either scouting late or youre not paying enough attention to your scout.

[Disastorm]

I will half agree with this... I was having this discussion with a friend IRL the other day and its just not possible to defend a FE against a toss without a minimum of 4 sunks. and even then, youll need lings to soak damage as well.

the main benefit of having a FE go off, is that if you actually get your FE off the ground, your opponent HAS to take an expo or theyre going to get over run mid game.

its a bit of a gamble, but if you can get it off... uh oh :X

if your drone isnt surviving more than a second while scouting... unless they have their wall up already, youre either scouting late or youre not paying enough attention to your scout.

the other alternative to expanding is doing an all-in which will usually have a 90% chance of defeating a zerg that has FEd. And even if the initial all-in is defeated he can continue to pump and eventually destroy you while your economy is devastated (due to defending the all-in).

[Stratosspear]

with marines.

Im sorry but how is this balanced.

If I FE he jsut brings his marines with him and kills me

If I don't expand and we both macro up his army is superior without me having the abiltiy to out macro with an early expansion.


So I can get to him and I also have no map control....

This doesnt seem fair


You should be able to out macro him, FE'ing or otherwise, and just get quick Roaches to stop any kind of Marine attack. Marines are TERRIBLE against Roaches, and I mean absolutely HORRIBLE.

[Roirrawa]

the all in is another gamble . if the z has even a little bit of up time with the FE, he'll be outproducing any terran that tries to do an all in... and a roach ling combi will tear up anything terran has to throw at them...

btw im only using terran examples because ive only played as protoss once and zerg once. ive played my 200 games as all terran.

[Namhcir]

richman, you mind putting up some of your replays for me? the meta is changing so fast and I really don't have the time to keep up in games to keep up with the flow of the meta :|

i have about 170 games so far and even that was done during my breaks and late at night sacrificing sleep before work the next morning haha.

an ftp or maybe even direct upload through some IM service would be great if possible >_>

haha i just play retarded, i just tri rax and try to win early if they are teching or force em into tier 1, then go into ghosts/banshees and whatnot and try to split their army up and catch em with marauders or w/e

I'm not sure about terran mirror at all, every game i play its radically different, it keeps changing atm