Mutas, the bane of air

[Huma]

I hate mutas.. What are good counters to it for Terran and Toss?

Fast, easy to kite with, bouncing attack, cheaper then its equals tier on other races.

I try pheonix and viking and its a joke, the anti air can't win.

High Templar seem to be somewhat ok dealing with mass mutas but its expensive and mutas can move out of storm quickly and sit on top of high templars.

Ravens a good counter with missiles, I have yet to try?

[Kurdaj]

Stalkers suck against Mutalisks and if I go Robotics Facility or Templar Archives, then I'm pretty much boned against air.

The only Protoss solution to the Zerg problem is to already have decided to go air. It isn't efficient spamming Cannons. Protoss is very weak against air atm.

[Messana]

There are already over 9000 posts on this topic. You could have easily looked at one or 7 of them.

[Thunderpants]

Vikings work decently, but if the zerg player has good micro it will fail. I'm pretty terrible at the game but I am assuming seeker missiles will do the best since it's a lot of splash damage.

[Uriel]

Stalkers/Sentries work fine against mutas if you're playing offensively enough that the zerg is forced to defend with them.

Obviously they're not as great if you're being harassed, even with blink you'll only get 1 or 2 before they move out of range, at which point phoenixes are the only option.

Cost for cost phoenixes will win against mutas. Obviously this leaves you lacking in ground damage, but if you have a decent ground army already graviton beam makes phoenixes a great support unit, and also comes back to forcing the mutas to defend.

[ankhol]

There are already over 9000 posts on this topic. You could have easily looked at one or 7 of them.

And if pertinent issues dont keep getting brought up, how is blizzard supposed to take a look at them?

[Fortifius]

Mutas are only a threat when in large numbers (critical mass is at about 40ish I would say). Even then, there are a lot of counters to muta threats, the most dangerous ones being psi storm and seeker missiles.

Good zerg players will use mutas with another unit that complements them. Cracklings/brood lords if you have a heavy ground force (I prefer cracklings myself =P) or hydras/corruptors if you have a heavy air force.

[Krazytrumpet]

Cost for cost phoenixes will win against mutas. Obviously this leaves you lacking in ground damage, but if you have a decent ground army already graviton beam makes phoenixes a great support unit, and also comes back to forcing the mutas to defend.

Um, what? Have you even played Protoss? How does Phoenix win cost for cost? There's little difference in the units (the phoenix has more HP) but the Mutas damage 3 units at once, which is why they are pretty damn hard to stop once you start to get 6 or more.

[Dagger]

Carriers wtf stomp them, same with a good ammount of battlecruisers. If it is before you can get either of those, their army probably consists just of those mutas, I have found fast teching them to be a 50/ 50 chance of winning because before you get them your army is small and you rely heavilly on base defenses. Keep pressure on the zerg so they cant devote all of their resources to teching them super fast.

Edit: I have seen some nasty videos of Raven hunter seekers demo'ing a pack in seconds. just need to launch a few with rapid succession.

[Levio]

PvZ, if they go mutas, just attack asap. They'll be down on resources and probably saving a lot for the mutas. Of course that means you have to scout, duh.

If they manage to mass mutas, psi storm is your only hope. Basically, don't let them mass mutas. A few are easily manageable, 5-6 and you can just attack their base while shrugging off the pin pricks.

[Uriel]

Um, what? Have you even played Protoss? How does Phoenix win cost for cost? There's little difference in the units (the phoenix has more HP) but the Mutas damage 3 units at once, which is why they are pretty damn hard to stop once you start to get 6 or more.

Here's a radical idea: don't let them mass mutas on you. And yes, I have played protoss, more of, and to higher levels than you.

[Krazytrumpet]

And yet you say the Phoenix is a viable unit to build....

I know the key to beating Zerg is to wipe them out before they get mutas, or at least keep the pressure on them so they can't get Mutas easily. This is Toss 101. If you let a Zerg player mass mutas, you already failed horribly.

[Rsb]

Mutas are fairly weak (defensively speaking) Relatively low health, plus the fact that they're biological and theres alot of things with bonus to biological. Mutas are most effective against large groups, so the easiest way to stave them off are to be more micro-conscious...maybe go at 'em from two angles at once.

Protoss' best defense against them are probably Stalkers, High Templar and Phoenixes. Carriers can manage them, but they're incredibly cost ineffective for that kind of thing.

Terran do well with missile turrets... 3-4 around a command center can handle 10 mutas without too much trouble. Marines do fairly well if they're stim'd... Vikings are favorable in mass, but are otherwise a joke. Battlecruisers are similar to Carriers in the fact that they can handle them, but are cost ineffective.

[Bearshark]

Phoenix tear mutas to shreds. They have 2 attacks and are faster. I did some experimenting with a friend, and with equal upgrades phoenix handily win 3-5 matchups. Meaning 12 phoenix will kill 20 mutas, and have about 6-8 left over.

Also Graviton beam is great ground support and harassment tool.

Phoenix are one of my favorite unit because they are underestimated by people who read one rage thread.

[Wretched]

Check out the help screen in-game, you can find some usful info there on what units are strong against what and what units they're weak against, very useful at times if you're not sure what to build for a counter.

[Colour]

I hate mutas.. What are good counters to it for Terran and Toss?

Fast, easy to kite with, bouncing attack, cheaper then its equals tier on other races.

[quote]I try pheonix and viking and its a joke, the anti air can't win.

I haven't really tried Vikings against Mutalisks but Phoenixes tear Mutalisks to pieces.

7 attacks from a Phoenix kills a Muta, 20 damage vs light vs 120 hp + 1 attack to finish off the regen if you are less upgraded than the Muta. They out range a Muta and move just as fast. It takes 20 attacks for a non upgraded Muta to kill a non upgraded Phoenix, at 9 damage an attack vs 120hp and 60shields.

7 attacks for the Phoenix vs 20 attacks for the Muta for the same gas cost and only 50 more minerals. Even with the bounce you'll clean up unless they outnumber you pretty bad.

Here's a youtube video showing 100 Phoenix Vs 100 Mutalisks. The Protoss loses less than half their Phoenixes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_NcLMb1zpg
And here's a one Muta vs one Phoenix. Showing the same result. Phoenix owns Mutas. It's pretty much what they were built for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDGCx8ezHR4&NR

For Terran I go with Thors & SCVs or just Marines and Medivacs. Either works quite well. Thors are better but you're less likely to be able to tech them before the Zerg have Mutalisks so if you see that's what they're going for get Marines while you tech to Thors. Battlecruisers should work well also but I haven't been able to actually test that. And I've seen Ravens do very well but I always forget to get the Seeker Missile researched.

[Krazytrumpet]

The problem with getting a lot of Phoenixes to counter Mutas is that it gimps your ground game. Zerg sacrifice very little by going mass Mutas(as they attack both air and ground), while toss still have to worry about the ground game when they get a bunch of Phoenixes.

[Colour]

Very true. But at least against Zerg you can use the Phoenixes to take down Overlords once the Muta threat is done with to cripple the Zerg while you get your ground force ready. And if he has little ground to air, which is fairly likely if he went Mutas you can use Graviton Beam to harass his Queen and Drones.

[Krazytrumpet]

Hrm, interesting point. Maybe I'll try that next time. Still wish the Phoenix was either more like the scout or more like the corsair, and not some weird attempt at hybridding the two.

[Jwray]

Mutas !**% vikings dollar for dollar very easily, because the vikings are bonus vs. armored and mutas are light. Terrans have no proper air superiority fighter. Mutas also !**% BCs because the BCs will be outnumbered 5 to 1 and over 9000 times slower. Protoss have no air superiority fighter either -- phoenix gets !**%d by mutas and can't kill expos. Void rays will be outnumbered 3 to 1 and lose. Mutas can also outrun anything in the game, and they attack faster than they did in SC1. Psi storm and seeker missiles are easy to avoid with proper micro and slight spreading. Marines are too slow to defend all your expos at once or catch the mutas when they hit and run, and if they split up they'll get !**%d. Turrets would have to be built at ridiculously high density in all your expos and waste as much minerals as your opponent spent on mutas. There really isn't any proper counter to mutas besides steamrolling through the enemy base before he manages to %#!! your economy too much with the mutas.

Brood war gave every race a proper air-based counter to mass air -- SC2 needs that.

[Baked]

High Templar seem to be somewhat ok dealing with mass mutas but its expensive and mutas can move out of storm quickly and sit on top of high templars.


math:

a group of mutas: 100m + 100g x 20 = 2000m 2000g >> a templar: 50m 150g + 1 time upgrade.

[Krazytrumpet]

math:

a group of mutas: 100m + 100g x 20 = 2000m 2000g >> a templar: 50m 150g + 1 time upgrade.

This math means nothing when the Zerg player lols and simply tells his mutas to move over a few squares.

[Baked]

This math means nothing when the Zerg player lols and simply tells his mutas to move over a few squares.

please learn to micro, if done correctly he will lose alot with only 2 storms

[Jwray]

please learn to micro, if done correctly he will lose alot with only 2 storms

Only if his units are bunched up like morons.

[Broloc]

as Terran: Stimmed marines + raven missile. gg

[Bearshark]

Going phoenixes only gimps your ground game if you build way more than necessary. Even if you have 10 left over, they are very useful. You can graviton beam their gatherers and use them to harass. And they are awesome vs zerg to hunt down their overseers, cuts down on their supply and scouting.

[Messana]

And if pertinent issues dont keep getting brought up, how is blizzard supposed to take a look at them?

There aren't issues. There are plenty of counters. People have posted them. Unfortunately it doesn't just take "build this unit and win vs mutas." It actually requires you to know how to scout and when to attack. The lower skilled players will not understand this, and lose to the strategy, but it does not mean there are no counters (and plenty of threads explaining these counters)

[Triangleman]

stimmed rines w/ medivacs %*#* the @#@* out of mutas, as they do most things.

mutas do not win against MMMs, they get crushed. the only choice zerg has against that is infestors + hydras.

protoss are @#%!ed, though.

[Halfwingseen]

been noticing that in bronze, upgraded sentries > mutas, with a couple attack upgrades (or just 1) sentries can kill mutas, especially since you can hallucinate 4 or so pheonixes, which deal no damage, but with focus firing with your sentires muta's can hardly tell they aren't real and so they get attacked first (which is slowed down by the sentry shield).

[OneManZerg]

I love mutalisks... YOu can use them to harass your opponents, to kill their workers, to dominate their armies and support your armies.

http://www.theuen.com/units/zerg/mutalisk has all of these videos on mutalisks and details on how to pull off these strategies.

[Moor]

For platinum tactics read the reviews over at Starcraft 2 (http://starcraft2guidebase.com) guide base.

[Gracken]

I am the bane of you. StarCraft 2 Guide (http://www.beststarcraft2guide.net)

[sc2scoorge]

lol lots of spam :D