Zerg has no chance late game vs Protoss

[Zippo]

ZvP late game, Protoss will always win. Anybody else feel that a good Zerg player has no chance against a good Protoss player in mid-late game?

Protoss
----------
Sentry - Guardian Shield
Colossus
Templar - psi storm
Archons
Mothership
Carriers

All of these absolutely rip Zerg apart in late game. I think if both equally skilled good players have 200/200 food, the game should go either way. But I don't feel that is the case ZvP.

Anybody else agree?

Any tips for a zerg player to defend against a Protoss that has a mix up archons, templars, colossus, sentry's, stalkers, and zealots?

Most of the late game zerg units are terrible:
Infestor = useless
Ultralisk = Only good for aoe against low hp units
Corruptor = anti-air only
Brood Lord = Slow, expensive, and easily killed

Zerg really needs some better units to last late game.
-Terran has Thor, Battlecruiser, and siege tanks.
-Protoss has Colossus, Archons, Carriers, and Mothership
-Zerg has ultralisk?

[Acosnil]

Good thing zerg have a laundry list of advantages early game! If you let a protoss amass that full list of units you almost deserve to loose as the zerg.

[Soli]

200 supply of lower tier upgraded units can hold up just fine. You don't *have* to pick some big shiny Tier 3 to mass. Every unit you listed has at least one good counter.

If anything, Zerg has the advantage in PvZ matches thanks to the lack of an effective Protoss anti-air unit to counter mutalisks. Sentries work better than Phoenixes but still not that well, and then you're stuck with a mass of support units that will get owned if the Zerg player simply adds a second unit to the mix such as lings.

[Zippo]

Mutalisks are easily countered by templars, sentry's, archons. Lings get destroyed by archons and colossus, especially when you have a handful of zealots tanking the front line.

[Mononaut]

You seem to have forgotten both Mutalisks and Hydralisks - which are, in my book, the Zerg's mid-late game bread and butter.

As for the infestors, I agree they're completely useless at the moment, and it's offensive that I'm required to build an infestor nest to upgrade my lair to a hive, but such is life. I have been thinking about how to possibly utilize it though, based on the skills it has... and from what I can tell, it could only ever be useful against protoss. Here's where I think the infestor would do well (highly situational, mind you):

PREMISE:
Protoss expands to a mineral patch, but doesn't defend it well.
ACTION:
1 - gather 6 infestors, place just outside the base.
2 - At full energy, unburrow 5 of them and spam infested terrans like there's no tomorrow.
3 - Focus down the nexus
4 - with the 6th infestor, mind control one of the probes.
5 - Build a nexus where the old one was (If he evacuated the probes when the terrans appeared, snag him then and just build the nexus off-point).
6 - Profit.

Anyways, that's my story. If anyone manages to pull this off successfully (in a ranked match), I'd pay to see the replay. I know the infested probes can build things for you, I tried it in the last few moments before I GGed a day or two ago.

[Zippo]

I never said anything about massing a tier 3 unit. I'm talking about Protoss having too many strong units mid-late game. Adding a couple of templars, archons, and colossus into the usual mass group of zealots/stalkers is a sure win against zerg.

I didn't forget about hydra/muta. I just never listed them because these are like you said, the bread and butter, much like zealot/stalker is to protoss.

My concern and point is that zerg does not have any similar units to throw into the mix that are as devastating as colossus/templars/archons/sentry are to zerg.

[Szarka]

You should be able to beat him well before he can to that. Protoss has to be on the defensive early on because he needs a terrain advantage to take roaches. Just keep pressure up and don't let him expand, once you make it to mutas its basically game over when you get some going.

[Zippo]

So everyone's general response so far seems to be that zerg has the advantage early game, but protoss has the advantage late game; This is actually the problem I am pointing out, it's not an answer.

I would hope for each race to be at equal footing at all 3 stages of the game (Early/Mid/Late).

[Elarain]

Is this a troll post? Like we're ignoring that mutas exist? Or by late game do you mean "I walled myself in for 40m and when I cam out he had 14 carriers" kind of late game?

[Zippo]

Is this a troll post? Like we're ignoring that mutas exist? Or by late game do you mean "I walled myself in for 40m and when I cam out he had 14 carriers" kind of late game?

You only read the first post, didn't you?

[Elarain]

Mutalisks are easily countered by templars, sentry's, archons. Lings get destroyed by archons and colossus, especially when you have a handful of zealots tanking the front line.

You're theory crafting like 90% of this. I can tell because its like you've never actually used the archon. it doesn't destroy anything. And sentries dont "counter" mutas. They help kill them, but are so slow that you can easily fly around them and go harass a mineral line. If this is REALLY late game you should have enough mutas that you can micro 1-shot every sentry and watch the bounces still half kill other sentries. Also archons 1 shot lings...but the splash is so abysmally small taht 8 lings still kill an archon. 2 zealots kill more lings then an archon does, true story.

Now if archons did half of what they did in SC1 i might agree with some of this but for right now only templars really hurt a muta swarm and only if you are slow on the micro, or if he has so many of them that he just chains down like 7 patches.

[Selsi]

So everyone's general response so far seems to be that zerg has the advantage early game, but protoss has the advantage late game; This is actually the problem I am pointing out, it's not an answer.

I would hope for each race to be at equal footing at all 3 stages of the game (Early/Mid/Late).

Its debatable though, whether any balance issue exists in the late game zerg vs anyone, as zerg excel at exponential army growth. I'm sure some korean pros are already making certain strategies and weak counters look bad and making a lot of things we do not viable. You seem to have come to conclusions already.

[Elarain]

You only read the first post, didn't you?

I read that you want 1v1 200/200 supply to be equal but then you theory crafted pretty much all of what you think would happen. Or maybe what you tried and lost with.

Protoss have 2 good air units. Mothership and carriers. Unfortunately those are both massive and zerg have an A2A corrupter that does +massive damage. A small fleet of these are fast and run around 1 rounding carriers and 2 rounding a mothership. If you've never spawned a corrupter/brood fleet you should try it. The corrupters will decimate anything the toss can put in the air. They also scrap colossi. Not that you need them to, because broods open up with a double shot for 25 dmg, and each shot spawns a little 6s broodling that hits very fast for the same dmg as a zergling. With a range of 9, archons will never be a problem. The broodlings will make your front ling and will be impossible to actually kill as they spawn with every shot.


But none of this even matters. In my 100 or so games thus far i've never seen a 200/200 fight. The game isn't even balanced around 2 races playing that way. So its moot. And if you were just talking about it in a "wouldn't it be cool way" I wouldn't care, but you're wording it like its a major balance issue when it isn't.

[Darthjiggles]

The goal isn't for both races to be equal power at 200, protoss units by nature are stronger but at a higher cost. Of course if you let them mass up they will be stronger, the concept of "the swarm" is moot when the "swarm" is matched in numbers. Also archons, cannons and phoenixes all essentially melt to mutas.

[Zippo]

Mass muta is very gas intensive and means you pretty much forgo every other unit, aside from ling. They aren't a complimentary unit at all (low hp/ low dmg), so you have to mass them before they actually do anything. In any case, I've never had a problem defending against muta with stalkers/sentry and a few templars. There also shouldn't be only ONE answer to late game for ZvP. There should be several options, and that doesn't seem to be the case. A mix of roach/hydra/lings just don't cut it.


Exponential growth was a zerg advantage in SC1, and is not so much the case in SC2. Protoss now has both gateways and chrono boost to keep up with zerg. Sure Zerg has been given a queen, but you can only produce as much as your economy allows it. In a normal competitive game, you aren't going to have enough resources to keep an active queen producing double larva on each hatch.

[Zippo]

The goal isn't for both races to be equal power at 200, protoss units by nature are stronger but at a higher cost. Of course if you let them mass up they will be stronger, the concept of "the swarm" is moot when the "swarm" is matched in numbers. Also archons, cannons and phoenixes all essentially melt to mutas.

I would disagree and say that each race should be at equal footing at 200 supply. That's the entire purpose of each individual unit having its own food count. Your argument would be valid if every unit in the game took up 1 food supply, but that's not the case. Protoss on average take much more food.

[Dirkydu]

I would disagree and say that each race should be at equal footing at 200 supply. That's the entire purpose of each individual unit having its own food count. Your argument would be valid if every unit in the game took up 1 food supply, but that's not the case. Protoss on average take much more food.



This isn't SC1. it's not about unit's being balanced against each other. It's about races being balanced against each other. At 200/200? Of course Toss has the advantage. This game is balanced around the cost of the units.

The bottom line is that Toss are designed to have fewer, more powerful units while Zerg are designed to have several times the units for the same cost. End game is balanced by the fact that you put out several dozen Hydras for the same amount of resources he spent on a few carriers.

[Zippo]

This isn't SC1. it's not about unit's being balanced against each other. It's about races being balanced against each other. At 200/200? Of course Toss has the advantage. This game is balanced around the cost of the units.

The bottom line is that Toss are designed to have fewer, more powerful units while Zerg are designed to have several times the units for the same cost. End game is balanced by the fact that you put out several dozen Hydras for the same amount of resources he spent on a few carriers.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "this isn't sc1"? Are you saying that sc2 is meant to have a completely different balance philosophy? I never said that individual units should be balanced against other individual units. I said that races should be balanced at each stage of the game. (Early/Mid/Late).

I think you need to recheck the prices on hydras/carriers. 24 hydras for 3 carriers? Really? I'm sure its more like 9 or maybe 10 hydras for 3 carriers.

And in any case, my main concern is not carriers, most games should not get that far. I'm more concerned with zerg having a lack of counters for protoss.

[Dirkydu]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "this isn't sc1"? Are you saying that sc2 is meant to have a completely different balance philosophy? I never said that individual units should be balanced against other individual units. I said that races should be balanced at each stage of the game. (Early/Mid/Late).

I think you need to recheck the prices on hydras/carriers. 24 hydras for 3 carriers? Really? I'm sure its more like 9 or maybe 10 hydras for 3 carriers.

And in any case, my main concern is not carriers, most games should not get that far. I'm more concerned with zerg having a lack of counters for protoss.

IMO SC2 does have a completely different balance philosophy. SC1 was straight damage vs. armor with an emphasis on macro play. SC2 is much more focused on individual unit abilities, as well as a hard countering system. Economics and micro are much more pronounced.

SC2 is balanced around the economy of building an army rather than the supply of an army. In SC1 you could have 200/200 armies clashing against each other and it was still fairly even. In SC2 the resources work differently. It's balanced around the fact that, in all stages, Zerg are going to have more units on the field than Toss. It's unrealistic to balance around 200/200 because that's never going to happen in a regulation game.

With regards to the actual number of Hydras VS. Carriers I was exaggerating to make the point I've been making: Zerg produces more units at a lower cost. Apologies if this took away from the discussion.

Another thing to consider: Because of the way each unit is designed to counter another, you wouldn't ever be throwing full supply limits of units at each other anyway. There is no longer the classic 100 Goons VS 200 Hydras because units aren't versatile like that anymore. One person builds Z's so the other builds Roaches. In response the first builds Immortals etc. The forces each player is throwing at the other is constantly changing and there's no realistic scenario where each player will make a full supply of only one (or even a couple) types of units to blindly throw at the other.

Finally, counters don't necessarily have to come from the same tier. I've had many matches where the game was won because someone regressed back to the first tier of units to counter their opponent's higher tiered units. A supply limit of BC's VS a supply limit of Void Rays might not go so well for the BC's (Never actually tried it, this may be wrong, but it's hypothetical). 200 Marines could be a different story.

Currently, there have been complaints floating around that Hydras are too versatile. Whether this is right or wrong, who can say? But if your Mutes aren't doing well against end game Toss maybe Hydras will.

[Clonze]

As zerg your main goal should be to overwhelm your opponent... expand everywhere, take sneak attacks at killing pylons that power their unit productions.
currently archons are a terrible unit, ultralisks TEAR through archons.. ultralisks TEAR through anything that is ground. Hydras are good at killing air units... a large group of mutas are also good at killing air or ground units.

[paradox]

corruptors can take out mothership, carriers, and colossi (since they can be hit by air only units) these are all considered massive targets and this means the corruptors do extra dmg to them. hydras can deal with just about everything else... they also may be even more effective at taking out carriers the corruptors are

[Draemos]

ZvP late game, Protoss will always win. Anybody else feel that a good Zerg player has no chance against a good Protoss player in mid-late game?

Protoss
----------
Sentry - Guardian Shield
Colossus
Templar - psi storm
Archons
Mothership
Carriers

All of these absolutely rip Zerg apart in late game. I think if both equally skilled good players have 200/200 food, the game should go either way. But I don't feel that is the case ZvP.

Anybody else agree?

Any tips for a zerg player to defend against a Protoss that has a mix up archons, templars, colossus, sentry's, stalkers, and zealots?

Most of the late game zerg units are terrible:
Infestor = useless
Ultralisk = Only good for aoe against low hp units
Corruptor = anti-air only
Brood Lord = Slow, expensive, and easily killed

Zerg really needs some better units to last late game.
-Terran has Thor, Battlecruiser, and siege tanks.
-Protoss has Colossus, Archons, Carriers, and Mothership
-Zerg has ultralisk?

First, Archon's suck in SC2. Second, Psi storm sucks in SC2. Third, Infestors destroy M&M. Fourth, Ultralisks will murder any ground unit in the game. Fifth, Brood Lords are very effective at what they do.
Sixth, mass mutas are pretty much endgame... and they are a total pain in the ass to counter.

And most important, Zerg aren't about unit for unit combat. The point of being zerg is to throw dozens of units at the guy... lose them all, and have dozens more of them w/in a few seconds. Their ability to mass produce units is why they are weaker at 200/200... because they can go from 0>200 faster than any other race by a mile.

[Alpacka]

Ultralisk = Only good for aoe against low hp units

Though you are correct in saying that an Ultralisk is only good at KILLING low HP units, you are ignoring the fact that it has MASSIVE amounts of health and armor, and can thus be the perfect spearhead for any army. Another thing you are underestimating is the canal and/or burrowing. Since every Zerg ground unit in SCII can burrow and get in the canals, and you can simply worm to their base, you can catch them COMPLETELY by surprise, even if they DO have detectors. Anybody who has read any war strategies knows how key surprise is.


In conflict, direct confrontation will lead to engagement and surprise will lead to victory.

Those who are skilled in producing surprises will win. Such tacticians are as versatile as the changes in haven and earth.

- Sun Tzu, The Art of War ca. 6th Century BCE

[Attica]

You can't just take a 200 zerg army vs a 200 toss army and compare for balance. Zerg are meant to out economy other races and win in that fashion. They are meant to trade units because they can easily replace them. Etc.

[Wingless]

Mass mutas or if you need even more power a dozen Broodlords protected by 30 mutas. Ive won that game more then once that way. Just make sue expand is your middle name when you play.

[Joeorange]

Honestly, if you let them get mass carriers, w/ Mother ship you kind of deserve to lose :/

To answer your question more:

Mass Carriers + Mothership

Beaten with mass Hydras + roaches (for any ground) 3 overseers (for roaches dealing with ground)
I have had this happen to me in several ffa's, and beat them all with this combination (though I still felt terrabad that I let them get these units).

Zelots / Immortals / Archons \ Stalkers \ Templar

Beated with lings (burrowed till staulkers are over them or templar) Hydras and Roaches
After the initial push I only produced lings. I did lose all my units twice during this encounter but like the poster above said zerg have a great ability to mass produce any unit fast. Late game it may be good to have one Queen per Hatchery for maximum reproduction.

Edit: I don't see a lot of Zerg doing this so I thought I would add. Late game creep can be all over the damn map. May not be as good in a ZvZ match, but every other match it is a great tool to make your army faster. I almost never hit without three overlords spewing creep in the area.

[kuroi]

The zerg late game should overwhelm protoss not by having lots of shiney awesome units but by simply outproducing the protoss. Who cares if one ultralisk loses to one battlecruiser or something like that. If the zerg are played correctly, you can make 10 of your units for every 1 protoss unit and simply swarm over them. They are the swarm for a reason.

[Lazz]

I agree completely with the original poster, and believe that the Infestor should be filling the late-game role - just like the Defiler used to. Dark Swarm/Plague always used to make the difference at end-game play, and the Infestor is pathetically useless for late game play in its current form.

[Leviathon]

Corrupters just need buffed to be useful AA. Problem solved.

corruptors can take out mothership, carriers, and colossi (since they can be hit by air only units) these are all considered massive targets and this means the corruptors do extra dmg to them. hydras can deal with just about everything else... they also may be even more effective at taking out carriers the corruptors are

A single carrier can take out 2 corrupters without a single issue.

[Zippo]

I agree completely with the original poster, and believe that the Infestor should be filling the late-game role - just like the Defiler used to. Dark Swarm/Plague always used to make the difference at end-game play, and the Infestor is pathetically useless for late game play in its current form.

Yes! This is what I am getting at. Zerg feels incomplete because their end game casters are useless. Protoss has so many useful units, and most of them are direct counters to zerg 'massing' up. Zerg on the other hand, only seems to have a small handful of viable units (roach/hydra/muta). All of these are easily countered by almost any protoss tier2/3.

And for those that keep answering with the same "zerg are about massing up and exponential growth, yada, yada".. well that's great on paper, but you actually have to be able to maintain the economy for it. It's not as easy as just having larva. If you attempt to continuously expand against a protoss, you spread yourself thin very early, and a good Protoss is going to walk over you early game if they see you doing it.