ZvZ and Roaches

[Luckishot]

I have yet to find a viable strategy to counter what's basically become the ZvZ staple strategy of massing roaches. I have been trying to counter with a large number of Mutalisks, but generally I only have 5-6 mutas when the attack occurs. If I am successful in defending my base, I am usually crippled and my opponent simply techs hydras (or just builds them if he has a den already completed) and my mutalisks cannot counterattack. At this point, he leaves a handful of hydras to protect his supply line and continues to mass roaches until my base collapses under the constant strain of attacks. I'm worried that ZvZ has broken down to this point..

If opponent builds mutalisks, build hydralisk. If else, build roach.

I've tried everything I can think of, banelings don't have the strength to take them out reliably (and they can burrow back to full after a hit) zerglings, naturally, are terrible against them. Even higher tech alternatives like Infestors and Ultralisks do nothing to stop them in large numbers. I've tried supplimenting hydralisks with other roaches, or ultralisks paired with hydralisks. Nothing so far seems to be working.

[Kinaesthesia]

Agreed, roaches need a downgrade. They're simply too strong compared to other units considering their low cost. First time I played Zerg I was surprised at how fast I could pump out roaches. And yet Protoss keeps being nerfed and M&M keeps being buffed...

[Lagorathia]

can i suggest spine crawlers till you get mutas? spine crawlers have a damage bonus to armored.

[Luckishot]

can i suggest spine crawlers till you get mutas? spine crawlers have a damage bonus to armored.

I actually tested this out in a losing battle. The other player wiped out my army of hydralisks with his roach spam so i built as many spine crawlers as I could (8) before his attack arrived at my main. His army was still able to push them down, though it was about 30 roaches strong.

Roaches seem to be in the position of zealots in PVP battles, where you just have to keep pumping them out until you can tech to warp rays or collosi. The difference being that in PVP, you're boned if you're still massing zealots when your opponent has tech'd to collosi but as zerg you really just have to keep massing roaches until one of you cracks. Perhaps the best course of action is to mass roaches supplemented with mutas or corrupters to attack your enemy's overlords, but getting enough mutas to do so is going to cost you at least 8 roaches that you'll need in order to defend or attack.

[Lagorathia]

I actually tested this out in a losing battle. The other player wiped out my army of hydralisks with his roach spam so i built as many spine crawlers as I could (8) before his attack arrived at my main. His army was still able to push them down, though it was about 30 roaches strong.

okay, i wasn't really sure about it. worth a shot.

[Ramennoodles]

Which brings up a question. What's zerg's answer to armored units? As of right now, I don't believe Zerg has any unit (Spine Crawler doesn't count) against Armored targets.

A role for the Lurker to fit perhaps?

[Redscare]

Zerg is overpowered in ZvZ

[Tribal]

I usually pump out a mass of zerglings upgraded with speed and it works before they can get more than 5 roaches out. So focus on taking them out before they can tech roaches. Thats what I do.

Couple different ways. But you definitely have to have 2 hatcherys.

[Luckishot]

It just dawned on me that zerg doesn't have an effective way to kill roaches. Your objective becomes not to actually kill your opponents roaches with a counter but to stop him from producing as many as you can via harassment of overlords. It may also be worth mentioning that the 'counters' to roaches (mutas and perhaps ultras, have to wait and see) boast hefty gas prices, and roaches are quite good at keeping a zerg player from expanding. As far as hitting them with zerglings, this doesn't work very well on maps like Desert Oasis, which is gigantic and has poor pathing for ground units.

[Lagorathia]

space marines are way op in ZvZ

[Shurimpu]

Which brings up a question. What's zerg's answer to armored units? As of right now, I don't believe Zerg has any unit (Spine Crawler doesn't count) against Armored targets.

A role for the Lurker to fit perhaps?You sir, are a genius.

Blizzard. Heed this mans word and give us lurkers back, so I can go back to Zerg.

[Luckishot]

I've been thinking a little longer about the battles that made me decide to post this and I noticed a similarity among the battles: they were all on the Desert Oasis map.

I reckon that because the Oasis doesn't have an easily defended expansion, a zerg player is not going to have enough gas to rapidly build mutas without expanding, and because expanding is so dangerous, it may be delayed for an extended period of time. Meanwhile, roaches give you excellent board control to defend expos or attack your opponents expos while costing minimal gas.

It could simply be that on the Desert Oasis map, the lack of defensible gas forces both players into a low-tier back n' forth until one player secures an expansion and can tech up, outproduce or resource-starve his opponent. Any thoughts on this?

[Discount]

Yes, i would assume they are bringing back lurkers, along with other units, remember it is a trilogy this time around. After terran is Zerg, then protoss. Each expansion has at least one extra unit per so at best we will see 2 more units as zerg. But to make each one different i bet that zerg will have 2 extra units in their zerg expansion while everyone else gets one and when protoss expansion comes out they will get 2 while everyone else gets 1. It makes sense, because if you look at you hatchery, look... there are 3 spots, only 3 for extra units that could go there, furthermore this makes sense because terran have the most units than every other race at the moment. Thoughts, ideas?

[Wingless]

You cant nerf roaches without buffing other thigns in zerg it would be a tier 1 overhaul.

#2 I win ZvZ with a muta rush defensive style. Otherwise I zergling rush and if they live it goes to mutas anyways. If your opponent got 30 roaches before you got mutas your doing it wrong.

[Tribal]

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&tab=upcoming&show=details&id=113198

Lings a few Spine Crawlers and Mutas to counter Roach rush.

[Fors]

Make roaches TWO food!

[Wingless]

Make roaches TWO food!

No

[Windstorm]

I watched the ^replay. For 18min game, your didn't prove that mute's could counter mass roaches. For one, your opponent was pretty easy, at one point you sniped all his overlords back to x/10 food. =/ By that time either of you could have had hydralisks.

Can anyone else find a valid T1-2 counter to mass roaches ZvZ? I've tried roach/hydra mix, speedlings/roach, and even when I was able to push out 6 mutas, the roaches just kill the lair and tech to hydras.

Do banelings work, I haven't tried them on roaches.

[Tribal]

I doubt banelings would work. Unless strategically placed under the mass roaches in a 2:1 ratio ambush.

Also ^ you dont have to follow my order to the exact. What I'm saying is suppress Roach numbers using fast Zerglings, while thinning out their overlords. They'll run out of steam quickly. Point is not allowing the opponent to mass roach in the first place..... forcing them to tech anti-air and eventually run out of cash.

[Nightmare]

i doubt banelings would work.

They don't work well unless you have A LOT of them.

[Windstorm]

From what I've experiences roaches kill hydras easily. Would switching unit tiers be too much? Hydralisk <-> Roach

[Koala]

It may also be worth mentioning that the 'counters' to roaches (mutas and perhaps ultras, have to wait and see).

Roaches beat even fully upgraded Ultras, because they can kite them, and burrow micro owns. Also fun fact, Ultras can't do enough damage to burrowed roaches to kill them, mass vs mass.

At least in my play experience.

[Baked]

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&tab=upcoming&show=details&id=113198

Lings a few Spine Crawlers and Mutas to counter Roach rush.

not a very good replay, the roach guy was a nooob.

[Evan]

Better roach micro wins vs ZvZ. Base defense helps. Crawlers with minimal defense keeps them at bay. If you go air roaches die or are forced to borrow. Make sure to have an overseer if your enemy is going roaches. Detection + focus fire owns roaches. I believe they move slightly slower burrowed, I notice I can't seem to run away from or out run anything and just end up unborrowing.

Mutas will win the day if they have no air defense. Kill the queen and as many workers as possible. Mutas will still beat roaches. I've had someone with no AA destroy my base but I killed their roaches because I had mutas and more on the way.

As for expanding, get creative and out scout your opponent. It's sad how many people don't check all expansions.

[Frozen]

I actually tested this out in a losing battle. The other player wiped out my army of hydralisks with his roach spam so i built as many spine crawlers as I could (8) before his attack arrived at my main. His army was still able to push them down, though it was about 30 roaches strong.

Roaches seem to be in the position of zealots in PVP battles, where you just have to keep pumping them out until you can tech to warp rays or collosi. The difference being that in PVP, you're boned if you're still massing zealots when your opponent has tech'd to collosi but as zerg you really just have to keep massing roaches until one of you cracks. Perhaps the best course of action is to mass roaches supplemented with mutas or corrupters to attack your enemy's overlords, but getting enough mutas to do so is going to cost you at least 8 roaches that you'll need in order to defend or attack.

Roaches = 3 range, Spinecrawlers = 7 range. If you put the Spines in the mineral field and put your Spawning pool between the hatch and the first Vespine gas, and your roach den on the other side of your hatch walling in your mineral field. Spinecrawlers can easily kill roaches, don't forget that while losing miners is bad, losing your base is worse. the drones if told to attack can keep pressure off the static defenses and let them do their job.

[Nerfnow]

One possible solution is to start pumping a horde of lings and put a overlord on his ramp. Hide your horde of lings somewhere on the map, but not on your base.

When he is halfway to attack your base, invade his

He will either come back (after losing lots of peons) or keep attacking (in which you simply will kill his base faster.

Of course, try to reach T2 and get Mutas, but the secret is to focus on his base, not on his roaches, and have a sizeable horde of lings.

[IMYOURKING]

imo you guys are going about this all wrong, i usually don't even mass roach in ZvZ, just 6 pool and harass intake with lings i start with around 8-10 lings before i go back to making drones and remember micro is extremely key don't be dumb and lose your lings to workers or a queen, next thing that is important is upgrade your lings move speed, also make sure u have an overlord watching entrance, once they begin the roach massing at this point you should already be teching for muta you must keep massing ling the whole time with drones untill muta and once he has his roach you stay camped outside his base as soon as the roaches leave his base go harass his intake, as soon as you have even 1 muta harass his intake and overlords and keep massing i usually dont expand until mutas, and another thing to keep in mind is never fight the roaches you should be able to down his base faster with ur lings before he gets to ur base and you will be extremely faster as he needs to be t2 for his speed upgrade and you will have teched faster as u didnt spend gas on roaches, but also keep in mind with this strategy you need to be microing and macroing at same time and takes considerable skill to pull off but it works for me frequently, if he masses spore, just get a few curruptors to spit on them and gg, usually i dont bring lings into combat untill glands is teched ill just use them as a tool to harass, sorry for my post being so long but this is my way to deal with roach massers