I think I see why ppl say toss is OP

[Drsmeagol]

After spending a good bit of time playing as toss and gotten a feel for the race I have finally realized why people scream OP!! at toss.
Toss has choices, zerg doesnt, terran doesnt.

Zerg you have roaches, hydras, mutas, broodlord/corrupter (except for a few rare other strats those are the main)

Terran has MMM, mass thor, banshee/viking, or BC

Toss has so many more options depending on what your fighting, fighting mass ground you can go DT, Ht and storm, zealot and sentury combo, mass stalkers with microing blink, not to mention colossus. If they go larger stronger units you have imortals, voidrays, carriers, DTs again, mass zealots. to counter air you have stalkers which are quite good at it, pheonix which do their job, void rays to cover large enemy air, carriers+mothership combo. Then add mothership to any combo and its that much better.

I held off a 2v1 as toss using colossus and zealots because the zerg and terran player went MM and Hydras. I built some zealots as meatshield and uses 3 colossus with 3 attack upgrades and the range upgrade, it desimated their forces. I only lost because I ran out of minerals.

Seems to me that some of the more specified units for terran and zerg were removed, changed, or upgraded it would help alot more.

Raven's missle is great, but their turrets are useless against an enemy army, and by the time you get any your not gona be defending against scouting parties. Those jeep things with the flamethrowers are just a plain joke unless your just slaughtering lings or workers. ultralisks cant realy hold their own in combat against the other units of their tier, especially against things like imortals, infestors still arent really that useful in combat, even with a perminant neural parasite (as long as your channeling) it isnt hard to just follow the chord and target the infestor. The overlord/overseer seem like they took the previous unit, split it into two units and gave it gimicks, the changeling is useless, Iv never seen it work effectivly, creep isnt that big of a deal like it could be for defense in the first one with the creep tumors. Id rather one unit for overlord/seer and a new zerg unit to give some variety.

[Scion]

Protoss is hardly OP in current beta build. If anything, Zerg is currently considered the most OP race.

[Wintermute]

There are only three races, and there's some one who thinks each of them is OP.

None of them actually is OP.

[Bibdy]

There are only three races, and there's some one who thinks each of them is OP.

None of them actually is OP.

Me and my two friends disagree.

Wait.

%#!!.

[Stratosspear]

There are only three races, and there's some one who thinks each of them is OP.

None of them actually is OP.

This is true, for the most part. Zerg just need something a little more viable to fight the MM&M ball and Protoss needs a viable ground AA unit and then I think the balance would be tuned quite nicely.

That said, I see the OP's point.

Zerg really have absolutely no options whatsoever. The only practical things to use against Protoss are Roaches, Hydralisks, and Mutalisks (usually in that order, and then a combination if it gets to late game). The only viable things to use against Terran are Banelings, Roaches, Hydralisks, and Mutalisks (again, in that order, and combined late game).

It also seems like the MM&M ball is the Terran's only real answer to anything. Even in SC1, at least you could choose bio or mech. Here it seems like Bio is the only option.

Protoss seem to have a couple different options. Zealots, Colossi, Immortals, Stalkers, Sentries, DT's, Void Rays, Phoenixes are all viable against Zerg. Drop Phoenixes and add Carriers (which is actually an incredibly deadly strategy) and those are your options for going against Terran.

Even though I'd consider Protoss the weakest race, it seems that they still have the most options, giving them the greatest capacity for fun.

[Shockwave]

Protoss has choices but those choices are limited to what your enemy is building. Noticed how most of the Protoss's arsenal is mostly focused for one group? Zealots, Colossi, Immortals and Phoenix are focused on one group and most of our multi attackers suck.
Colossi = Counter for MMM Ball.
Immortals = Counter to tanks.
Stalkers = Counter for air.
Those are the most useful units in a PvT battle, everything else is optional but you still need it. Let's also mention that Protoss is more resource heavy so it kind of limits us from building things like MMM. I think PvT is the most balanced of any two race. Terran also has counters to the Protoss arsenal.
Viking = Colossi
Banshee = Immortals
Marines = Stalkers

[Bam]

In Starcraft 2, there is no imbalance, only bad players.


Amirite?

(Sarcasm)

[Proletaria]

We have the illusion of choice really.

TvP we need Colossai or Templar to counter bio mass. We also need a few phoenix if we are going colossai (because invariably we're getting them gunned down by emp + vikings). What we use for gateway fodder is also dictated by the terran player. If he's going marauder heavy, we just cannot use zealots, they will never land a hit. If he's going marine heavy we need a lot of sentries to keep shield up around the rest of our forces. Stalkers are always filler (being out only real ranged damage with any kind of armor), but the "choice" to fill in with them is directly related to which of the above scenarios is going on. DT are an awful choice vs. a com-sat terran.

ZvP we need sentries, lots of sentries asap as well as a few zealots just to hold of a potential t1-2 push from sweeping us out of the game at the 7min mark. We do have somewhat of a choice between DT and Immortals for backing them up, but I think the smart choice will continue to be avoiding immortals, picking up a stargate, and using the micro-heavy phoenix to eliminate detectors and allow DT to push the zerg around a bit. Once the zerg has expanded to the point he's making never-ending masses of hydras we're basically locked into High Templar storm spam. It would take far too many robo facilities to keep pace and warping in 6+ HT is one of the only ways to hold our ground mid-game.

So yea, we do use a variety of units in games, but most of it has to do with the fact we're forced to be very creative just to hang on in the early-mid game. It doesn't take much to figure out which way a toss player is going. Just scout regularly, don't press his base, keep him contained, and either 1) emp to victory (terran), or 2) starve him to death with harassment from mutas/air while whittling his army away with waves of your favorite ground unit (zerg).

[Shockwave]

In Starcraft 2, there is no imbalance, only bad players.


Amirite?

(Sarcasm)
No, there is imbalances. Zerg air vs Protoss.

[Wyrd]

This is true, for the most part. Zerg just need something a little more viable to fight the MM&M ball and Protoss needs a viable ground AA unit and then I think the balance would be tuned quite nicely.

That said, I see the OP's point.

Zerg really have absolutely no options whatsoever. The only practical things to use against Protoss are Roaches, Hydralisks, and Mutalisks (usually in that order, and then a combination if it gets to late game). The only viable things to use against Terran are Banelings, Roaches, Hydralisks, and Mutalisks (again, in that order, and combined late game).

It also seems like the MM&M ball is the Terran's only real answer to anything. Even in SC1, at least you could choose bio or mech. Here it seems like Bio is the only option.

Protoss seem to have a couple different options. Zealots, Colossi, Immortals, Stalkers, Sentries, DT's, Void Rays, Phoenixes are all viable against Zerg. Drop Phoenixes and add Carriers (which is actually an incredibly deadly strategy) and those are your options for going against Terran.

Even though I'd consider Protoss the weakest race, it seems that they still have the most options, giving them the greatest capacity for fun.

I know what you mean. Except for the rare exceptions where my banshee harass goes exceptionally well and I can freely go straight to BC+ravens, I have very little ability to escape from MMM. Sure, I will use different support units, ghosts against toss, hellions against zerg, siege tanks against terran, but its always the MMM as the base. MMM is nice because of how well it works, but I can say that I am getting a bit bored with it. And even for a lowly silver leaguer like myself, trying anything too far from the norm gets me trashed quick.

[Jinsin]

i play zerg in the silver division, and as it stands right now there is no way to beat terran for me, i don't see why i have to be a pro in order to beat a race.

First let me just get this out of the way, i have beaten MMM once because the idiot didnt change his strat when he was able to see what i was going (infestors/hydras, i assumed this build since this was TvZ he was going MMM) and i slaughtered him.

MMM is impossible to beat, if you try to counter it, they just use their comsat station or w/e it is called and build siege tanks to counter you and if they see a spire they build ravens or vikings to stand on the tanks.

Usually i expand quickly and it works, i get a lot of yield out of it but the MMM ball is unstoppable and the fact zerg have no way to see into the opponents base as easily as comsat (changeling doesnt work since all choke points are blocked). If i was able to i could pump more of X or Y out but thats not the case i am left to guess.

In my opinion this is poor design, the enemy has a unit build that counters all your ground and air units, runs faster with stim than upgraded banelings on creep, able to see what you are building at any time, and doesn't need to worry about being harassed because they have the choke blocked off.

Keep in mind i'm saying all this with my skill level in mind, in the past few game versus Zerg or Protoss i have won, but my last 10 terran games i lost, i just can't do it, so i will say it one more time; Why do i have to be pro to defeat Terran?

[Drsmeagol]

You gota use zerg to your advantage. When there is MMM put a meat shield between you and them, catchthem when they first drop. I always use lings for it, with both upgrades and 3/3 get about 100 or so and they do an amazing amount of damage for their low life and armor, and gives your more imortant units a buffer

[Terranyouup]

I wouldn't say they are overpowered but considering their cost you get what you pay for. Although if you hit them with some decent air in numbers you can watch them run in fear since the Phoenix is such an underwhelming fighter.

As far as the general strength of the races, in my opinion I'd have to place them in this order:

Zerg --> Protoss --> Terran

Terrans are such a one-trick pony with their complete dependency on infantry units right now it's insane. I've read people complain about the MMM ball but when viewed from the Terran side it's really all they have to work with. Sure they have other units but there is no reason whatsoever to build them. The infantry just gets the job done cheaper and better. The rest is just for screwing around and it seems that Blizzard is actually looking to change that. Would be nice to see since it would give them some flexibility.

Protoss are slow to get going but the strength of their units eventually offsets all that. Still though, the lack of a solid mobile AA platform does hurt them considerably in my opinion. Archons are not even close to what they used to be and Templar research costs a ton and takes a long time before it can even come into play to make a difference it seems. That really needs some looking into. Maybe a time and cost reduction.

Zerg have always been a solid race and that still remains the case now. I do expect them to have some unit changes though to bring them more in line with the other races. Currently it seems that every Zerg player just skips right ahead to Roaches since there is just no better unit to go with before going with Hydralisks or Mutalisks. For their cost, armor, damage output and supply requirements really why would you make anything else?? That's part of the reason why Zerg matches are so boring. It's not that they don't have other good units, it's just that Roaches get it done better for cost and that would really need to change otherwise this game quickly becomes C&C style single unit massing.

[Wintermute]

In Starcraft 2, there is no imbalance, only bad players.


Amirite?

(Sarcasm)

According to all available statistical evidence, this is correct.

According to random people on the forums, every single unit and mechanic in the game is both overpowered and underpowered.

In every case I've seen a replay of some one losing to "unstoppable unit combination X" there was something they could have done, but failed to do.

[Bonjwa]

Toss is op because any "blob" of units work. Terran requires intricate tank placement and if you are attacked prematurely you lose your whole army. Zerg is pretty much in the same boat though, blob and spam fungal just like toss blobs and spams storm.