Twilight Fortress does not belong in 2v2 comp

[Hubris]

Bases back to back.

A free expansion right near each base.

Hidden behind a shared single ramp.

C'mon Blizzard, save this for novice, not for arranged 2v2.

[Elil]

Twilight fortress is my favorite map. I wouldn't want all of them to be like that but it produces completely different games which is good. It is also the best map ever for photon rushing :)

[Ltbloodshed]

Why? Cause you cant cheese rush?

[Chasm]

I like it... you get to work as 1 unit. It's pretty cool dude. Its a different map that provides different gameplay. there is more then 1 way to play this game, get over it

[Rade]

Bases back to back.

A free expansion right near each base.

Hidden behind a shared single ramp.

C'mon Blizzard, save this for novice, not for arranged 2v2.

Translation: I and my zerg buddycan't double rush one of our opponents or an easy win! My god, a 2v2 map where you might actually see a T3 unit once in a while! Such Injustice!

[Xterminator]

Sounds like OP is not good enough to master twilight fortress

[Zeku]

This is a beta
A variety of game conditions are being tested

[Proletaria]

90% of my wins in this map are still rushes... what's all this fuss?

I LOVE the fact those free expo's are there. It just encourages the bads to throw a command/nexus/hatch down before they even scout or build any kind of defense. Ahaha..

[Kurdaj]

TF is a really different map.

I would like it better if there were rocks on the ramp that required players to fly over or break through. A map like that, people (including myself) expect it to be geared against rushing. A map like that is asking players for a strong mid to late game.

But the opposite is true. Unlike Kulas Ravine or Shakuras, where the odd late game fight breaks out, every TF game has been a rush - every one without exception. And I keep getting plastered because I want to early expo and build a strong force of mid to late game units.

But no, it's lings or rines. TF has turned out to be a major disappointment for me.

[Proletaria]

TF is a really different map.

I would like it better if there were rocks on the ramp that required players to fly over or break through. A map like that, people (including myself) expect it to be geared against rushing. A map like that is asking players for a strong mid to late game.

But the opposite is true. Unlike Kulas Ravine or Shakuras, where the odd late game fight breaks out, every TF game has been a rush - every one without exception. And I keep getting plastered because I want to early expo and build a strong force of mid to late game units.

But no, it's lings or rines. TF has turned out to be a major disappointment for me.

Well, with a single defensive choke (albeit a wide one), there are plenty of creative ways to turtle yourself in and expo/tech. That being said, it's no smarter to do that on TF than anywhere else. Allowing your opponents to gain total map control (both X'N towers, extra expansions) while you hunker down is just asking to be far out-produced in p3.

TF plays a bit diffiently, but it is certainly not a license to tech and ignore the early game.

[Hubris]

I like it... you get to work as 1 unit. It's pretty cool dude. Its a different map that provides different gameplay. there is more then 1 way to play this game, get over it

Yup there is more than one way to play this game, I don't like free expansion + auto tier 2. You should actually have to fight to stay alive at minute six. Keep this garbage to novice.

[Proletaria]

Yup there is more than one way to play this game, I don't like free expansion + auto tier 2. You should actually have to fight to stay alive at minute six. Keep this garbage to novice.

O_o I've ended games there prior to t2 (though getting across the map before t1.5 is pretty hard, i must say.

I won't give away my favorite Toss/Terran rush there, but needless to say sub 10min wins are the norm for us when people assume the map is "free expo, auto t2."

[Kurdaj]

Well, with a single defensive choke (albeit a wide one), there are plenty of creative ways to turtle yourself in and expo/tech. That being said, it's no smarter to do that on TF than anywhere else. Allowing your opponents to gain total map control (both X'N towers, extra expansions) while you hunker down is just asking to be far out-produced in p3.

TF plays a bit diffiently, but it is certainly not a license to tech and ignore the early game.

Hey, it costs resources and time to expand. There is no "click to receive 500 more minerals a minute" button. In the time it takes to expand and get workers on it, the "turtling" players will be teching and building powerful units.

I'm just saying, in a game where most matches are decided in the first 10 minutes, it would be refreshing and welcome to have a map where the focus is mid to late game. If you want early game, every other map can accommodate that. I'm just asking for one map where rushing isn't a viable strategy. Right now, TF isn't it.

[Proletaria]

Hey, it costs resources and time to expand. There is no "click to receive 500 more minerals a minute" button. In the time it takes to expand and get workers on it, the "turtling" players will be teching and building powerful units.

I'm just saying, in a game where most matches are decided in the first 10 minutes, it would be refreshing and welcome to have a map where the focus is mid to late game. If you want early game, every other map can accommodate that. I'm just asking for one map where rushing isn't a viable strategy. Right now, TF isn't it.

There are a handful of maps where rushing isn't very reliable. I was just noting that TF plays very similar to it's counterparts despite looking dramatically diffirent and that it is far from a free pass to ignore traditional defensive play.

If your opponents (i suggest scouting on this map immidately) aren't going for something crazy, a long game with a lot of tech will be in the cards for you. Unfortunatly for players like you (who enjoy an hour long slug-fest with masses of t3 units), most teams like mine find that kind of exhaustive and needless game-extending to be a waste of our time, so we come up with creative ways to rush.

If you really want a victory fleet t3 super-game consistantly you'll probably have to start playing ffa.

[Kurdaj]

There are a handful of maps where rushing isn't very reliable. I was just noting that TF plays very similar to it's counterparts despite looking dramatically diffirent and that it is far from a free pass to ignore traditional defensive play.

If your opponents (i suggest scouting on this map immidately) aren't going for something crazy, a long game with a lot of tech will be in the cards for you. Unfortunatly for players like you (who enjoy an hour long slug-fest with masses of t3 units), most teams like mine find that kind of exhaustive and needless game-extending to be a waste of our time, so we come up with creative ways to rush.

If you really want a victory fleet t3 super-game consistantly you'll probably have to start playing ffa.

...or just give me a map where that's the case and you can place it on your block list. Real simple solution here.

[Cyrus]

Its your Classic Top Vs Bottom map, for team play action. Gives you quite a nice tug of war battle with the right players on each side.

[Proletaria]

...or just give me a map where that's the case and you can place it on your block list. Real simple solution here.

Then make such a map in the editor and host it when the game goes live. We don't need "no rush" maps on the ladder, period.

[Kurdaj]

Then make such a map in the editor and host it when the game goes live. We don't need "no rush" maps on the ladder, period.

Because, god forbid, your skills be put to the test after the 6 minute mark... There is more to the game than MM or Roaches.

[Proletaria]

Because, god forbid, your skills be put to the test after the 6 minute mark... There is more to the game than MM or Roaches.

I play toss and even with my terran ally I have some of the most pathetic t1 in the game, so no, most of my wins don't come from roaches (or the toss equivalent).

Fact is, rushing and defending that rush is an important part of the game on any map. Getting rushed and fending it off puts you ahead of your opponent who just wasted money on units instead of workers. Conversely, if i see an opponent whom i believe to be teching to something very hard for us to counter or expanding hard enough that he'll way out-resource me later, i'll put everything I have into rushing them and preventing that.

I'm not sure what you think would happen in this magical land where the game started at t3. I can tell you right now a few terran ravens would fly in and HSM the whole big pile of air units to death and then giggle.

[Incubated]

the best new map. offers a totally different strategy, like a quasi team melee. keep it, but hey, you just reminded me. i haven't played it in ages.

you know what map i hate? kula's ravine. get rid of this like the cheeseypuuff.

[Anon]

I hate this map,because i haven't learned it yet

it's a completely different ballfield.Half the time walling up early is essential,especially if dual zerg (got annhilated once by a constant ling rush till mutas,and i mean CONSTANT)

This is a stage where you need to be able to keep pressure from start to finish,or tech the hell out of your race.It's too easy to defend bases compared to others.

It's that little bit of spice that adds favor to the game.

[Gokanjin]

TF is a big ass map, and the game can take anywhere between 5-45 mins. It's definitely one of those maps that you can see T3 units come into play and a lot of back and forth action going on that's gonna make you say WTF! Or F*** this map! It's not my favorite map, but it's definitely one of the more interesting ones.

[Kira]

Why? Cause you cant cheese rush?




You are playing the map he is talking about right? I've won numerious games on that map with a rine rush via double barracks+reactor with my partner pushing out Lots/lings to play the meat shield while my rines picked everything off. It's just as easy and you are just as likely to be rushed on that map as any other, and a resentment of the people that rush you is ignorant, most wars are won by catching the opponent by surprise or when they are unprepared.

[Magpie]

Me and my partner have just decided to mass tier 1 rush people on this map and we've won most of them.
People don't really expect it or suck at scouting.

In all though i agree that it's kind of a dumb map. It just doesn't remind me of a real SC map. It screams custom game.

[Kira]

In all though i agree that it's kind of a dumb map. It just doesn't remind me of a real SC map. It screams custom game.



Truth be told a lot of the new stuff makes me think "custom game" if we are going by SC1 standards. High yield resources reminds me of fastest money map, I remember a custom game that would illuminate other sections of the map if you stood on the beacon, zel'naga watch tower anyone. I've just started to accept it as blizz realizing some of the ideas could be taken and made into cool strategic advantage areas on their standard map.

[Antpile]

...or just give me a map where that's the case and you can place it on your block list. Real simple solution here.

me and my partner have this map blocked, and we still get it all the time. That makes no sense to me unless the other teams out there have every map except this one thumbs down.

[Magpie]

me and my partner have this map blocked, and we still get it all the time. That makes no sense to me unless the other teams out there have every map except this one thumbs down.

We have it as the ONLY one crossed off, and we still get it at least 50% of all our games. I'm beginning to think the map preferences just don't work during the beta so people need to play all the maps.

[Bloodsugar]

i can safely say i played the coolest game of starcraft EVER on this map.

It was just a constant massive army battle back and forth fighting for expos. The game lasted forever but at the end of it all we lost and still had a great load of fun. I cant say ive had that much fun in this game before. When two teams that know how to play the map play each other it really brings out a fun fight.

[Acrowley]

It's a different style. This map feels more like a shared base or BGH. It's not for everyone, and I don't usually prefer it, but at least there's a little variety than everything being a temple clone. I'm hoping to see more map variety to come.

[Staradmiral]

OMG a map where its harder to rush, blizzard please remove it.... sarcasm.

All the other maps are the same, god forbid a map which requires you to use a different strategy.

[Afterfallout]

when opening the OP I was actually thinking that he didn't like this map because he couldn't wall off the ramp as T.

I have rushed on this map almost every game:
2 reactor rax rines + 4 gate zeals
2 reactor rax rines + 2 reactor rax rines
2 reactor rax rines + 2 gate zeals
10 pool lings + offensive photon cannons
2 gate zeals + 2 gate zeals
1 reactor 2 rax rines + proxy warp gate (before I learned an effective 2 reactor build)
proxy warp gate + fast roaches (pre warp gate nerf)

In fact the only times I have seen anything past t1.5 is when one side has already won. Contrast to Metalopolis where about half the games get past t1.5 (and every game with T) or Sakura where every game just about gets to t3+.

I think it is because the bases are so close to each other that this happens. With the other maps you rush one player and the other has time to build up their units while they are on their way to try to help recover from the [usually] lost cause of an ally. This gives them the opportunity to fend off the initial rush and hence get to the next tier of units. But on this map the bases are so close that there is no opportunity to react. Instead you have to use whatever units you have to the enemy that has already taken some of the units from the other player. At best this leaves you with an even army size. But because there are so many low hp buildings in the near vicinity the aggressors can hurt production enough to roll the defenders over with a second push.

[Rade]

Hey, it costs resources and time to expand. There is no "click to receive 500 more minerals a minute" button.

Yes there is...it's called "MULE"

[Jwray]

Aww, the OP's double 9pool rush focusing one of the teammates down doesn't work on 1 map! So sad!

[engineer]

There is plenty of room for variety on the ladder. If blizz didn't want map variety on the ladder, then the whole ladder would use a single map.

Frankly, I'd like to see even more variety in the map design.