Lack of crowd control

[Acrowley]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Starcraft 2 will NEVER live up to Starcraft 1 unless they bring back tactical crowd control. Starcraft 2 just totally lacks it. Psistorm sucks now, tanks suck now, nukes suck now, there are no reavers, no maelstrom, archon splash has been removed, the lurker has been removed... pretty much everything that made Starcraft stand out from every other "rts" has either been nerfed hard or removed. IT feels like every race is zerg now. They even made structures take extra damage and die faster now so that base defence is less effective. The only real option besides a cheap tech rush is massing. Mass, mass mass. That's all there is to it now, and that's just sad.
Starcraft 2 has lost the vital strategy of crowd control, and that will make it just another failed RTS, and not worthy of the title "StarCraft 2" (Just look at how all those other games failed horribly compared to SC, just think how many times they've remade Command and Conquer and all the rest... and they still couldn't stand up to SC, a game over a decade old!)
To be honest, they have done a TON of improvement in this game. I think it has the potential to be the best RTS ever, if only they would fix this. The graphics are great and it can still run on crappy computers, and a lot of the changes they made and things they added are amazing. I'd totally give this game my full support, but it fails in a very vital area. A lot of people are making this same complaint, I just don't think they can put their finger on it. For example, people saying: "the game is over after 1 battle, where in original StarCraft you could withstand a counter-attack, in SC2 you can't". Think about it, this is the reason for that. The same for the people complaining about base defence sucking, or the races lacking defences (like all the "lacking anti-air" threads...) it's all the same problem. Please fix this, Blizzard!!
Edit: Perhaps you thought stuff like psi-storm, tanks, and lurkers were over-used in SC1? You obviously thought those things were too powerful. Change would have been good, but neutering crowd-control like you did is just NOT the answer. Why do you think almost every drawn out game is people massing the same units over and over now? (For instance, roach/hydra, mmm, mutas, etc.) Why? Becuase it's so overly effective now. The only answer is to mass back. Sure, micro wars are fun and take good skill, I am not saying it doesn't, but just think, it was the same in StarCraft 1, except there was a whole new dimension of strategy and tactics that is just MISSING now in StarCraft 2.

[Kurdaj]

As much as I hate RMP in arena, the skill involved to make that comp work was impressive.

There is something to be said for what SC2 is lacking compared to its predecessor.

[Zeku]

They haven't abandoned the notion. Raven turrets are definitely territorial. Tanks still exist, though heavily nerfed. Creep spreading is within this line of thinking. And barrier shield on the sentry. Perhaps a few others.

You're correct though, there are some gaps.

-Range has been seemingly arbitrarily extended across the board. Everything seem to have a base 6 range now. Random units all over the place have a range of 7 and even 9. This definitely contributes to massing and spamming.

-Defenses are no stronger, in spite of damage being higher overall.

-Ranged units (other than marine) can barely handle air units, so they are showing up with higher frequency than SC1.

-And then we have air siege units. Much like a NATO showdown, air superiority is the entire game. Once you have it, you can harass the hell out of anyone with mutas, banshees, or whatever.


The question on map control is whether they want to buff terran back up to their old 'creeping death' status, or perhaps give some of that functionality to protoss. I think I'm on pretty safe ground in saying that it's not appropriate for zerg, at least in terms of unit design.

[Nick]

psi storm doesn't suck. tanks don't suck. haven't used nukes.

[Acrowley]

Nick, they lowered the damage and radius on psi-storm immensely, but upped the health and attack damage on most of the other units. Tanks cost more now and do a lot less damage. Seriously, hydras (for example) can just walk right through a well-placed psi-storm or a few tanks now. Sure, tanks and storm *can* stop mass hydra, but when you think of how quickly templar and tanks die now, and how much less effective they are now.... basically, if you have to mass tanks or templar to counter their mass instead of a few at least posing a threat, then sorry but yes tanks and psi-storm "suck".

[Rks]

Psi-storm is more OP than Sc1 IMO, you can spam it.

[Acrowley]

You could spam it before, only in SC2 now you need to spam it or it's ineffective. That's what we're saying.

[Tzarkan]

Psistorm sucks now
It is weaker, but I wouldnt say it sucks. Its extremely limited and I expect a buff before Betas end, but used on chokes it can still be useful. Cant spam it out in the open as effectively, but you can smart cast it, so its a fair trade off.

tanks suck now, nukes suck now
lol, your not using them right then. Both are fantastic.

there are no reavers
Its called seeker missile instead of Scarab. The Terran stole it. Its powerful in battle now, not just for harass

It sounds like you want it to play exactly as SC1 and be able to use the same strategy ala copy paste. This will not be the case, nor should it. Just because you have to use different methods doesnt mean its inferior in any way. For starters, weve been playing for what three weeks now? What strategy was used 3 weeks into SC1? I cant think of anything like the gameplay we have now till maybe three years into SC1. And before you say "Im not looking for SC1 with better graphics" or anything, one of your complaints was "there are no reavers". You have Immortal and Colossus. You might as well complain that theres no Arbiter or Science Vessel, despite that they have been replaced very well. This game was meant to be something new, but continue the SC story and style, and it wouldnt be a new game if they threw in every SC1 unit.

I will give you credit for pointing out the lurker absence though, since Zerg didnt get a replacement for him it seems. Baneling is exellent crowd control when used properly but it just doesnt seem to fully cover the role as well as it should, though this may be that we simply havent found the best way to use it yet.

[Acrowley]

It is weaker, but I wouldnt say it sucks. Its extremely limited and I expect a buff before Betas end, but used on chokes it can still be useful. Cant spam it out in the open as effectively, but you can smart cast it, so its a fair trade off.

Everything has smart cast now, and that's an awesome addition, but I really dont' see it as much of a fair trade-off, since with some micro the same thing could be done before, and I agree that there should be a little buff.


lol, your not using them right then. Both are fantastic.
Sorry, both tanks and nukes seem to be only about 1/3rd as effective as in SC1, however, massing things like MMM and hydra/roach seem much more effective now. It's not just for terran, all races are suffering from this. There really needs to be some sort of balance here. They really have failed SC2 in that regard.


Its called seeker missile instead of Scarab. The Terran stole it. Its powerful in battle now, not just for harass
Exactly. Actually, I see the seeker missle much more like an instant irradiate than a scarab, but it can be outrun.

It sounds like you want it to play exactly as SC1 and be able to use the same strategy ala copy paste. This will not be the case, nor should it. Just because you have to use different methods doesnt mean its inferior in any way.
No, not really. I love a lot of the changes they made, so far I'm very happy with this game, but I don't like that they've castrated a lot of the strategy and basically turned the gameplay much more like those other RTS games where it's all about massing a big ball of units, and throwing it against their big mass ball, and pretty much whoever wins that battle wins the game. Just because I'm holding it to higher standards based on its predecessor being StarCraft (and not Total Annihilation, for example) doesn't mean I am asking for an SC1 clone. If I wanted to play SC1, I could. It's still installed.

For starters, weve been playing for what three weeks now? What strategy was used 3 weeks into SC1? I cant think of anything like the gameplay we have now till maybe three years into SC1.
Very good point. It is still only in the beta stage, and also there are 2 more expansions planned that will hopefully boost the multiplayer experience a lot. I totally agree, and share your positive outlook. Right now, I'm just doing my job as a beta tester: looking at the game the way it is now, and doing my part leaving feedback. There is a problem, I'm pointing it out and hoping they do something about it.

[Gor]

WTF? Tanks are actually BETTER now in seige mode than in SC1, because all unit types take full damage (rather than just large unit types ala SC1). The only difference is they cost 25 more gas now (arguable whether that's appropriate or not).

Nukes are easier to use IMO, with how its a quick load at a ghost academy and doesn't take the space of an orbital scan anymore.

IMO, the only race that can claim they have less casters/units for crowd purposes is the zerg. They have banelings and infestors only now. The other 2 races still have several splash, control, & AE effect units. Collossus, Psi Storm (much easier to use and blanket than before), Phoenix Grav beam, EMP, Seeker Missle, Hellion vs light, Tank splash, Thor stun (albiet Thor's are a little UP arguably).

i.e. disagree.

[paradox]

i play zerg and tanks and psi storm are both still annoying as #*!*. psi storm eats my lings, hydra, muta and if the tanks a placed correctly can kill just about w/e. they only thing they seem to have trouble with is roaches (ground unit wise of course) and the only time they have trouble iwth the roaches is when they are out in the open or if the roaches have the regen upgrade. honestly you can put tanks in some really cool places. there is one map where there are small ridges were you can fit like 4 tanks maybe on top. if i dont have something flying with my units im boned and will scare me away pretty easily

[Tenklavir]

Again, watch pro replays. The Predy vs. Firstandlast battle on HD Starcraft's channel comes to mind. MMM Is the main crux of his force but hardly consists on ONLY infantry. Lots of hellions, tanks being used for support like intended instead of massed like they were in SC1. You will see exactly the counter-argument to most things people whine about: psi storm sucks, hellions are bad, ghosts can't be killed, EMP is OP, micro is dead, all people have to do is mass X unit, etc. Just because you aren't good enough to execute as they do doesn't mean that it's bad or OP.

[Manbullpig]

I love a lot of the changes they made, so far I'm very happy with this game, but I don't like that they've castrated a lot of the strategy and basically turned the gameplay much more like those other RTS games where it's all about massing a big ball of units, and throwing it against their big mass ball, and pretty much whoever wins that battle wins the game.

Well, I've been playing quite avidly recently and a lot more serious than I played SC1, I suppose because I was younger then and I didn't really play the game to its full potential. I use to only play SC1 on "The Fastest Money Map Ever" and only having that kind of game play as a reference. Then I grew up, and watched the battle reports one at a time as they came out before beta launch, and I saw how the game was meant to be played; scouting parties, small skirmishes, harassment, defending with choke points and structures, amazing micro, and smart expansions, etc.

My point is, I try to get into the habit of playing like a pro, even though I'm very far from it, and I found in my games that, if I don't maintain pressure and map control and harass their economy, the match starts to turn into kind of a steamrolling game, where we just amass units and clash them together and try to micro as much as possible.

So, yes, you may lose some games after ONE decisive battle, however, if you maintain as much pressure and scout as much as you can and suppress their tech advances and expansions, I find the game more filled with small scales fights consisting of 3 zealots and an immortal versus 4 marauders and some marines. Making the game more integrated, comparing to other RTS' as you mentioned where they just throw as many units as possible into battle.

Just saying, yes, you can lose after one big match, and some of the mechanics as you pointed out don't discourage players from massing units, because of the weak crowd control, but its all up in the air during beta, we can only help with finding bugs and pointing out some popular trends and their counters, if any*

[Wyndrunner]

As a Zerg player Psi Storm still seems as powerful as ever. I keep seeing these posts about how weak psi storm is and I don't understand because it eats through my units really well. Does it have a smaller range than in SC1? The damage certainly doesn't seem too low.