In-Depth Discussion 1: Pheonix

[Raislin]

I think I'd like to start a series of threads based on in-depth discussions of certain aspects of Starcraft II. Since the majority of topics are related to units, I'll start with a unit that everyone knows of, but not many really use.

I chose the Pheonix over the Stalker because Stalkers are the second assault unit Protoss have access to (along with Sentrys), so all Protoss players have some experience with them.

The Phoenix is the Protoss' "Air Superiority Fighter." They can only attack units that are in the air, meaning any air unit, Colossi and any unit that is the target of their special ability. The general consensus seems to be that the Phoenix is underpowered. Considering the cost of production, the time to tech to them, the limit to units in the air make them undesirable unless you have little choice.

As a Protoss player, I've recently become intrigued by this unit's special ability. It seems to me that a group of Phoenix could be a decent supplement to your ground forces when facing certain ground units. Pop some into the air to be killed by your Phoenix, and it's like that ground unit never existed for you. 10 seconds is more than long enough to kill pretty much anything.

I'm sure there's more to this unit. Discuss.

[Sizro]

Graviton Beam is cool but I'm not gonna lie. There's much better ways to handle ground units then having to micro Gbeam.

[Rebelfist]

Graviton Beam seems to be best used to nuke down ghosts w/out letting them use EMP round. And then your phoenixes can kill the medivacs ;D

[Chalon]

The only time I've gotten much use out of a Phoenix is harassing a Zerg player (either kill their Overlords or Graviton Beam their Queen/Drones) before they get Hydras/Mutas. But that only works if they really commit to Roaches and don't scout you.

The problem they have is just the cost/benefit. They are not good anti-air against the majority of the air units, and the amount of resources you'd have to spend to use Graviton effectively on say, Ghosts or Immortals, just isn't super worth it.

[Kraytex]

The gravity beam does makes them a really strong unit if used properly.

[Raislin]

the amount of resources you'd have to spend to use Graviton effectively on say, Ghosts or Immortals, just isn't super worth it.

I imagine even 1 or 2 Phoenix would pretty much be enough to make the difference against a ground force containing immortals. 2 Phoenix, a handful of zealots and some stalkers would do quite well on the ground. Remove the Phoenix and the immortals will cleanup. They'd break siege tank defenses, as well, although Void Rays can just snipe them.

I agree with the rest you said, in general. Colossi are generally the best way to go for decimating ground units. Phoenix' have a base damage of 20 versus air units with a normal attack rate (10 damage, 2 attacks), which I think is pretty respectable. The range of 4 is a severe weakness, though, and they're not nearly as mobile as Mutalisks, meaning properly microed Mutas would literally run in circles around a group of Phoenix and could even win a battle. I believe Pheonix would win a straight up battle, though.

[Taevin]

Phoenix actually aren't that bad, they're just kind of lackluster. They don't fly in and perform heroics like Immortals vs Roaches, which is probably underscored by the fact that many Protoss units do seem "heroic" against the unit they counter. There's a replay posted somewhere in these forums that shows a Protoss player counter Mutalisks with Phoenix.

It really does seem to me to be part of the Protoss player's mindset. Zerg goes Roaches? Build Immortals with a few Zealots and steamroll them. Zerg goes Zerglings/Hydra? Colossi and Zealots cleave them apart. Zerg goes Mutas? Oh noes, all of a sudden there is no loliwin counter because Stalkers will lose mass-on-mass, Psistorm is a gamble, and Phoenix, while effective in equal numbers with some micro, force the Protoss player to actually invest a lot of resources into a unit they otherwise wouldn't get.

[Wyvern]

Phoenix' have a base damage of 20 versus air units with a normal attack rate (10 damage, 2 attacks), which I think is pretty respectable.
No, their base damage is 5x2 with a +5 bonus against light units. That means they deal 20 damage to Mutalisks, Banshees, and other Phoenixes ONLY. Every other air unit--Vikings, Corruptors, Void Rays, you name it--takes a pitiful 10 damage from Phoenixes. Actually, those units have a base armor value (which give Phoenixes a double penalty!), so it's even less.

Basically, Mutalisks are the only unit in the entire game that Phoenixes are actually worthwhile against, and even then you pretty much need to already have a lot of them before the Mutalisks come out if you're going to keep up. And that's a huge hit to you economically, because whatever you have left over after fighting the Mutalisks is practically worthless to you...and if you misread them and they don't produce many Mutas after all, you pretty much throw the game away by having six Phoenixes in reserve.

[Raislin]

force the Protoss player to actually invest a lot of resources into a unit they otherwise wouldn't get.

Not to mention a unit that won't be able to assist in destroying a base on assault. Void Rays are great for running in, sniping a build and escaping or taking out large targets, such as Thors, but the Phoenix doesn't have that ability (in fact, not even the special ability works on units like Thors and Ultralisks). And most smaller ground units are massed enough that microing the special ability doesn't seem like it would be effective.

I can see it having niche uses:


"One shotting" immortals or tanks, by hovering them and then destroying. Hovering some Marauders and then destroying Medivacs. Destroying Colossi. "One shotting" a few massed ground units as an instant reduction against your force

Looking at that list, it seems Pheonix could be quite useful in a group of about 3-4. That would be enough to destroy most ground units in 1-2 rounds of attacks, and the Pheonix isn't really particularly expensive if you're not massing, but here's the problem with it:

The Pheonix is classified as an "air superiority fighter" and they seem to fall in as a support unit at best.

[Comtrav]

Vikings no longer have base armor.

Phoenix vs. Viking could be an interesting micro dynamic--Vikings have better range, but I'm pretty sure the Phoenix is faster. Viking recently had its damage changed to a higher base damage and a smaller bonus vs. +armor, Phoenix could use a similar adjustment IMO.

[Payback]

Only real buff I think the phoenix needs is a cost reduction.

[Wyvern]

Vikings no longer have base armor.

Phoenix vs. Viking could be an interesting micro dynamic--Vikings have better range, but I'm pretty sure the Phoenix is faster. Viking recently had its damage changed to a higher base damage and a smaller bonus vs. +armor, Phoenix could use a similar adjustment IMO.

Vikings do 10x2 to Phoenixes. A Phoenix does 5x2 back at the Viking. A Phnoenix has about 50% more total health/shields. It's no contest. Vikings will always win unless outnumbered.

Even if the Terran loses their air force, the Protoss had to spend more on Phoenixes than the Terran player did on the Vikings that died, and the Protoss player doesn't even get any meaningful air superiority out of the deal: his remaining Phoenixes have almost nothing left they can add to the game except as an expensive deterrent.

[Dreyo]

Vikings do 10x2 to Phoenixes. A Phoenix does 5x2 back at the Viking. A Phnoenix has about 50% more total health/shields. It's no contest. Vikings will always win unless outnumbered.

Even if the Terran loses their air force, the Protoss had to spend more on Phoenixes than the Terran player did on the Vikings that died, and the Protoss player doesn't even get any meaningful air superiority out of the deal: his remaining Phoenixes have almost nothing left they can add to the game except as an expensive deterrent.

Vikings and Phoenixes are both Light. Phoenixes get their bonus damage (10x2) and vikings don't (10x2, as you said). Vikings have 125 health, Phoenixes have 120 health and 60 shields.

Phoenixes cost an extra 25 minerals, but that's not a big deal. The biggest problem is that once they take out the vikings (or, god forbid, the vikings, you know, land) then they're pretty well useless.

Almost everything I might consider building Phoenixes for, I'd rather have Void Rays instead. Though I have to say that if they did as some people would like and made them into Corsairs, then protoss air would be completely unstoppable. And no, it wouldn't include Carriers.

[Terranosaur]

Only real buff I think the phoenix needs is a cost reduction.

I'd like to see a cost reduction and build time reduction. Mutalisks can be built in parallel and the cost of 4-6 stargrate is far higher than a spire. Alternatively, give them corsair splash, give back the overload ability, or give them range/speed upgrades.

[Wyvern]

Vikings and Phoenixes are both Light. Phoenixes get their bonus damage (10x2) and vikings don't (10x2, as you said). Vikings have 125 health, Phoenixes have 120 health and 60 shields.

No, Vikings are armored. The Banshee is the Terran light air unit.

[Raislin]

Vikings do 10x2 to Phoenixes. A Phoenix does 5x2 back at the Viking.

It's funny that Phoenix are listed as being strong against Vikings in the tech tree. Clearly not true. The Phoenix is indeed faster, but Vikings do twice the damage and have more than twice the range (Viking: 9, Phoenix: 4).

Comparing to the common zerg air figher, Mutalisk, the Phoenix does 11 more damage per attack round (Mutalisk: 9, Phoenix: 5[+5]x2) with 1 more range (Mutaliks: 3, Phoenix: 4) and comparable mobility. The Mutalisk's bouncing Glaives will cause 9+6+3? damage overall, resulting in only 2 less overall damage per attack round.

So the Phoenix loses miserably to a Viking on paper and is comparable to Mutalisks in groups (although a single Phoenix would rip a single Mutalisk a new one).

[Dreyo]

No, Vikings are armored. The Banshee is the Terran light air unit.

Oh. I could have sworn they were light when they were flying...

[Raislin]

Nope, they are indeed armored, and:

(or, god forbid, the vikings, you know, land) then they're pretty well useless.

That'd be a fatal mistake. In this case, the Phoenix win almost instantly.

[Wyvern]

9+6+3? damage overall, resulting in only 2 less overall damage per attack round.

So the Phoenix loses miserably to a Viking on paper and is comparable to Mutalisks in groups (although a single Phoenix would rip a single Mutalisk a new one).

I think the glaive wurm attack is actually 9/3/1. So Phoenixes WILL win consistently against Mutalisks assuming equal supply of both, regardless of the size of the groups...but Protoss need to go so far out of their way to tech to and build Phoenixes that you probably have to make do with less, and then it gets fuzzy.

[Namhcir]

Graviton Beam is cool but I'm not gonna lie. There's much better ways to handle ground units then having to micro Gbeam.

gbeam can take some pretty heavy units out, its very underused and probably one of the best units in the game right now i think...

Its in the same category as the raven right now, doesnt seem that great but could way better than anyone could have imagined once some pros start integrating them into strats more late game

[Raislin]

Namhcir, I agree that Pheonix are potentially quite powerful against a ground assault. But do you see the problem with that?

[Squishy]

Vikings do 10x2 to Phoenixes. A Phoenix does 5x2 back at the Viking. A Phnoenix has about 50% more total health/shields. It's no contest. Vikings will always win unless outnumbered.

This is not accurate. A phoenix has almost double the attack speed of a viking making the actual damage rate of both units close to the same. Given the shields on the phoenix in a 1v1 comparison the phoenix should come out ahead. I think slower bigger hits allow for much easier micro and focus fire, however, which might account for your perception.

In spite of this, I think the phoenix does need a little boost. The gravitron thing is great for CC on dangerous ground units, but beyond that it lacks the versatility to warrant being so mediocre.

[Raislin]

A phoenix has almost double the attack speed of a viking

Are you sure about that? Both are listed as having a Regular attack speed, I believe. A group of Vikings would also be able to focus fire snipe 1-2 Phoenix before they even get in range to return fire, automatically putting an equal number in favor of the Vikings.

[Comtrav]

Yes, the Vikings' vulnerability during transformation would make transforming a Viking being focused a bad move. if you transform them all to ground, the Phoenix can just use gravity beam.

If you're fighting over an expansion or something, a cage-y Terran could land a few while the air battle is still going on, and seeing if the Protoss player is willing to try to graviton beam them. But the Terran player is more likely to mop the ground with them anyway.

To some degree, this isn't a good comparison. (How often do you see Corsair in PvT in SC1, anyway?) Void Ray/Viking might be a more even match-up.

Here's the trouble with the air model IMO:
You have Light and Armored air units, and each race has counters for both. This is a good thing, it makes fighting air more complicated then building an "anti-air" unit; there's no such thing, after all, as an anti-ground unit. (Even Colossi will be beaten by Thor.) I hate games where air units are hard countered by a couple of flak turrets or whatever.
The problem is that not all races have properly implemented anti-Light and anti-armored air counters. And in some cases, one of them flies and one of them doesn't. In particular, the anti-light air counters don't seem to be doing their job, which is part of why Mutalisk feels so strong atm.
Personally, I think part of the solution (and something people would like to see anyway) is reducing the hardness of the counter system. (Which is actually a departure from SC1, where the air units are much harder counters to each then the ground units.)
Also, it's partly a player problem, people build an "anti-air unit" and it expect it to counter ALL air.

[Squishy]

Are you sure about that? Both are listed as having a Regular attack speed, I believe. A group of Vikings would also be able to focus fire snipe 1-2 Phoenix before they even get in range to return fire, automatically putting an equal number in favor of the Vikings.

Yup, if you look at my sig I have done the testing. This is pretty much confirmed by a EU tester who did similar tests. At "slower" the phoenix is a 1.9 attack speed while a vikings air attack is a 3.4.

[Raislin]

That's some really good information! However, Vikings still come out on top according to that data at 5.88 DPS vs 5.26 for Phoenix (with a smaller range and a higher cost).

An interesting side-note: Sentries have a higher DPS than Stalkers. That doesn't actually surprise me, though.

[Bearshark]

Of the 3 anti-air light air units (muta, phoenix, viking), phoenix is the most dominant as air-superiority. Vikings get their bonus to armored air, so phoenix rip 'em apart. I did some testing with a friend vs mutas, and in a 3 phoenix, 5 muta match-up the phoenix wins with 2 units left. That makes it the strongest light air unit. Granted, it can not directly attack ground, but that's the trade off for creaming other air units. I think people perceive it as underpowered because they make them in a last ditch effort when their opponent has tons of mutas.

I have never been beaten by mutas, and have mostly the phoenix to thank for that. Once their air force is down, the spare phoenix are great for harassing overlords, or even as support in larger battles. Microing graviton beam to pick out high templars or infestors is awesome.

I really have no problem with the current iteration of the phoenix, and right now one of the greatest things about it is how everyone underestimates it. I love hearing "lol phoenix" from an opponent right before I wipe out his air attack. Classic.....

[Comtrav]

So, here's a question.

How bad is the Phoenix REALLY, and how many people just never try them because they heard/assume they're terrible?

Or maybe used them wrong, or built them and lost the game for other reasons, and then assume they suck?

[Kat]

G.Beam is cool. Not gonna lie. I like it.

Other than that the unit is kind of mediocre. I'd like to see them improved, but i think its down the line. (the thing toss needs right now is some sort of improvement to stalkers.)

Phoenixes are OK for now i think. If they buff them, i'll be glad, but i'd prefer to see them work on one of the other units that need a lot more tweaking.

[Chung]

Are you kidding me? One phoenix will ALWAYS kill one viking, regardless of how much micro is involved (hint: phoenix is way faster, range doesn't really matter). Many versus many is a different story but... has anyone in this thread even seen these two in action?

[Raislin]

Are you kidding me? One phoenix will ALWAYS kill one viking, regardless of how much micro is involved (hint: phoenix is way faster, range doesn't really matter). Many versus many is a different story but... has anyone in this thread even seen these two in action?

That's true that a Phoenix would take a Viking 1vs1, but generally it's group dynamics that matter. I believe that after a certain number of units, the Vikings come out on top. Considering their cheaper cost, there would probably be Vikings and something else, or just more Vikings. I've seen Vikings in action several times, but not the Phoenix.

My opinion is that the Phoenix is a good unit. Build 2-3 to supplement a Zealot, Stalker and Colossus attack and you'll find that those normal counter don't work quite so well anymore. Pop up those immortals and toast them. But I would certainly not call it an air superiority unit. Yes, it's superior to other light air, but not enough to have that title.

I'm not ready to use the Phoenix yet. I take my units one at a time, so that I can learn how to best use each one and how to tech to it most efficiently without leaving myself vulnerable. I like Dark Templars and that's what I'm working on right now.

[Aderin]

I agree with the rest you said, in general. Colossi are generally the best way to go for decimating ground units. Phoenix' have a base damage of 20 versus air units with a normal attack rate (10 damage, 2 attacks), which I think is pretty respectable. The range of 4 is a severe weakness, though, and they're not nearly as mobile as Mutalisks, meaning properly microed Mutas would literally run in circles around a group of Phoenix and could even win a battle. I believe Pheonix would win a straight up battle, though.

Phoenixes have a base attack of 10 and they get an additional 10 vs. light units. This means that they decimate mutalisks quite hard, but are lacking against other air units. I have a question though: since when are mutalisks more mobile the phoenixes? I'm fairly certain that phoenixes are faster.

[Anon]

The phoenix i think may not actually be meant to be an AA unit,which is bothering since they have no AA units

i think the phoenix is a support unit.Useful for taking enemies out of the fight AND taking out the army little by little,but at the same time can at least keep the army from being defenseless from air altogether.

You can get them faster then the other air,and they're lower tech,yet pack more punch with 1 or 2 then 2 void rays will (that is,if they're picking out the support units).This would be supported by the fact that their support move doesn't actually help at attacking air.

I haven't of course tried this,but they seem like they could be very useful for this...


Phoenixes have a base attack of 10 and they get an additional 10 vs. light units. This means that they decimate mutalisks quite hard, but are lacking against other air units. I have a question though: since when are mutalisks more mobile the phoenixes? I'm fairly certain that phoenixes are faster.

I might be wrong but aren't the mutas able to chain strike enemies still?so their damage is fairly high.They can also be massed faster then a phoenix.

[Aderin]

A lot of people are bringing up the point that phoenixes suck not because they are not good at destroying air, but because they are useless after they destroy the air, where most other air units are not. I would like to bring up the point that this is not true at all. Phoenixes are actually very good in supplement to a ground army to have a few gravitational beams that act very much like cyclone.

Phoenixes are particularly effective vs. zerg because building a few of them will pre-emptively counter mutalisks (which a lot of protoss complain about, though I have no idea why). Now you might be thinking "wait a minute, what if he isn't going mutalisks, then I just wasted all of that tech and money on nothing but a few useless pieces of *!%*," but that is also not true. Phoenixes are the first thing available from a stargate so it's really not too far out of the way.

The advantage of quickly having phoenixes against zerg besides pre-emptively countering mutalisks is that a phoenix will destroy overlords effectively, and this is usually before the zerg player can muster hydralisks. You can also use gravitation beam to kill their queen. After the harassment with phoenixes, they can shift to a support role in your army for using gravitation beam on a few of their units. Believe me, phoenixes are far from useless, at least against zerg.

[Aderin]

I might be wrong but aren't the mutas able to chain strike enemies still?so their damage is fairly high.They can also be massed faster then a phoenix.

Oh yes, they can be massed much faster than a phoenix. If you're late with phoenixes and your opponent already has a few mutalisks, then your phoenixes are not going to help you because your opponent will just beat you with numbers. I'm fairly certain that chain strike is (as earlier mentioned) 9/3/1, so that's 13 damage in total. This means that a phoenix still has far more firepower en masse than mutalisks. No doubt, phoenixes will do their job against mutalisks if you don't fall behind your opponent.

[Aderin]

I personally haven't tried phoenixes vs. Terran, but I can see how they would theoretically be very helpful, even important. A few phoenixes can gravitate some marauders and keep some of the beef out of their army and then destroy medivecs (which I would be very surprised if they weren't light armored). They would also be effective vs. banshees, but a group of vikings will beat a group of phoenixes, probably, so air-to-air may be a problem.

[Anon]

Oh yes, they can be massed much faster than a phoenix. If you're late with phoenixes and your opponent already has a few mutalisks, then your phoenixes are not going to help you because your opponent will just beat you with numbers. I'm fairly certain that chain strike is (as earlier mentioned) 9/3/1, so that's 13 damage in total. This means that a phoenix still has far more firepower en masse than mutalisks. No doubt, phoenixes will do their job against mutalisks if you don't fall behind your opponent.

It's fairly easy for toss to fall behind Zerg in air

Stargates can't be converted into warp gates,so massing is a lot slower.They can't be made till late in the game either.

Meanwhile the spire is not the producer for mutas,just a req.Larva are massed from the start of the game and therefore the Zerg can make them very quickly as soon as the spire finishes.

For the Phoenix to match up to the muta in number,you'd need it's build time to beat the muta at least enough that 2-3 stargates could make a formidable number.

[Aderin]

It's fairly easy for toss to fall behind Zerg in air

Stargates can't be converted into warp gates,so massing is a lot slower.They can't be made till late in the game either.

Meanwhile the spire is not the producer for mutas,just a req.Larva are massed from the start of the game and therefore the Zerg can make them very quickly as soon as the spire finishes.

For the Phoenix to match up to the muta in number,you'd need it's build time to beat the muta at least enough that 2-3 stargates could make a formidable number.

One very powerful thing about zerg is their ability to rapidly switch techs, which makes massing phoenixes never a good idea, even if they are hell-bent on massing mutalisks. I think your best bet is to remember the fact that despite their advantage of being able to pump out mutalisks quickly once the spire is built, they still have to build a spire. It's easier to get a stargate than a spire so you should be able to have a few phoenixes before he gets his mutalisks. I would try to hunt his mutalisks down before he gets a significant amount of them. If nothing else, it will at least distract him or delay him. I find that most zerg players take their mutalisks behind their base when they are preparing for a mass so scouting your phoenixes around there is a good idea.

[Kranden]

You know gravaton beam is still garbage for a unit thats designed to be an AIR SUPERIORITY FIGHTER, yes its wonderful and all to take out heavy siege units like immortals, but are you really going to make pheonix if your enemy is just spamming ground troops? What we need these units right now to do is be able to hold their ground to mutalisks, fighting zerg goes like this, they are going to go roaches, go fast immortals or die horribly from a roach rush, zerg goes to mutas all your immortals are useless, kill zerg with immortals before he gets mutalisks or die horribly because you cannot tech and outbuild a zerg with pheonix compared to how fast a zerg can pump mutas.

[Neurozone]

The problem with phoenixes is that they're too expensive when you consider the cost of the stargate with them. In PvZ, the imminent threat is roaches, and for that, you're going for immortals. It's not really practical to go for both robo AND stargate at the times when they'd be effective the most, due to the gas cost associated with both. You really need a gas expansion for this to even be an option.

Quite simply, the stargate tech tree isn't really cost- or time-effective when dealing with zerg at the moment in 1v1. You can use a few phoenixes early to harass overlords or the queen, but it pretty much precludes your ability to make units other than zealots because they all have (relatively) high gas costs as well for that point in the game. Void rays are easily countered by hydras, which aren't exactly a rare unit to see in PvZ. I can't really say I have much experience with the mothership or carriers, as games typically don't go on long enough right now. They're won by midgame due to the power of roaches, mutas, and hydras for zerg and sentries, zealots, and immortals for protoss.

The phoenix would see more use with a slight reduction in gas cost for the stargate and phoenix itself -- maybe as little as 25 per phoenix and 25 on the stargate. It's possible that the reason this is the way it is right now is because stalkers really don't fit any kind of role vs armored units like roaches like their bonus damage suggests they should, and immortals are probably overperforming at their role due to the ridiculous bonus they have. I could easily see stalkers + phoenixes being sustainable (cost-wise) in the early game, and they would have synergy as far as the gravitron beam mechanic works, as well, but stalkers just don't work vs roaches so they're not viable.

[Raislin]

If you're quick enough, you can have that first stargate out to build 2-3 Phoenix pretty quickly. If you beat the Zerg opponent to air units, even a single Phoenix can start harassing those overlords. Get 3 and pop the queen, while continuing to micro your Phoenix' to harass Overlords. After the third, you can switch to Void Rays. Bring the Void Rays in to Snipe a dangerous looking building (Spire??).

I actually prefer to go for Dark Templar because it's not really expensive to get there and you can still get that Starport out quickly. A well placed Proxy pylon could even allow you to skip making a Warp Prism to drop Dark Templar in their base. Go straight for an immortal or two. I once had a single immortal crush a reaper invasion while my Dark Templar crushed the opponent. Again, I haven't played with Phoenix, but I'm going to start doing so, especially versus Zerg players.

It really seems to me like Protoss require a lot more management than the other races to keep up with them, right now. However, if I gain an advantage early on, I find the game ending very smoothly as a Protoss player.

[Raislin]

Well, I tested this out and I was completely wrong. Two to three Phoenix don't really make much difference. Granted, I was in a rough situation by the time they came out, but it took two Graviton Beams two destroy a single squishy Stalker between the 3 Phoenix (only two attacking at once). I imagine it's still nice for removing heavier units like units from the fray temporarily, but you won't be killing Graviton Beamed units in the air with the Phoenix.

[Therasquatch]

I think a simple tweak would be enough to give them a place and I have two ideas for that tweak.

1. Allow the graviton beam to target air units. This will give it a similar functionality to aerial shackles from Warcraft 3 and allow you to lockdown larger air units, giving it a place as a hard counter to heavy air while keeping protoss vulnerable to massed smaller air units like Mutas. It will also give them a place as a harassment unit to go along with your army. When your ground army of Zots/Stalkers encounters a weaker army you can use the one or two support pheonixs to graviton beam a few couple air units making the enemy player choose between escaping and leaving those units behind, or staying and trying to save those units.

2. Give them back their AoE attack function. Lower the damage they do slightly but make them attack units in an area of cone, they can fire lasers from each of the wing tips at different targets making them a soft counter to mutas. A slightly smaller force of pheonixs will take a larger air force out but you'd still need quite a few of them.

[Jon]

Reading through this discussion, I think the issue is pretty apparent. We're talking about Phoenixes strictly as a counter and nothing more. If you mass them, the can counter Mutas or Vikings, but on their own, they don't do anything. That's the big issue here. No other air unit has this problem.

Void Rays counter heavy air and snipe buildings.
Vikings counter heavy air and can assist on the ground, or be used to harass.
Mutas are self-explanatory.
Corrupters counter air, but also can convert to overlords once the threat is dealt with.

Additionally, VIkings and Mutas (the real counterparts to phoenixes) are both offensive threats. They can harass expansions and assist in a big way with assaults. Phoenixes don't have that going for them. They are strictly a defensive weapon. I think that more than anything else is why they aren't seeing wide use.

[Raislin]

Good observation. I think most would agree. I'm glad we got some good discussion from this thread. In-Depth 2 is up on Zerg rushes. It doesn't seem to be attracting much attention, so the 3rd might be going up sooner than expected.

[Bibdy]

Phoenixes are awesome. I'm convinced the only people calling them weak are trying to throw 1 Phoenix into a wad of 4-5 Mutalisks and expecting similar results to throwing a single Corsair at them.

A good cluster of Phoenixes will demolish Mutalisks, and then allow you to rush around the map, at blazing speed, destroying Overlords, harassing mineral lines and assassinating Queens.

And in Protoss vs Protoss games (that get past the Proxy rush stage, anyway...) they're simply amazing at countering almost anything. They can kill Void Rays fairly easily (Void Rays do 33% damage to Phoenixes and can break chains by flying away insanely fast), they can disable Stalkers/Immortals, and they can gun down Collossi once the Stalkers are taken care of.

Very useful, while niche unit.

My only gripe is the gas cost and/or build time. One of those needs a tweak to make them easier to field. Since they're niche, you're usually going to need them in a clutch situation, but the high gas cost and slow build time makes it too difficult.

[vulcan]

They need the corsair splash. I feel Phoenix are one of the weakest units in the game right now because of their piss poor damage and no splash or bounce. I am fine with them only hitting air with Gravity beam, but you need so many of them to take advantage of it to harass bases.

Having Gravity beam not be channeled would be good, but perhaps too overpowered if they can still be attacked during it (Think tornados in war3 but you can attack), so I dont think that could happen unless they did some serious tinkering with the spell such as duration and mana cost.

But honestly, Phoenix are supposed to be a real good AA fighter, which they just arent right now. "Air Superiority" implies they rule the skies, but as it stands this is not true. As I said, they need splash to be able to compete, or just higher damage. I really dont see how anyone could disagree that they need some kind of boost, they are so subpar compared to Mutalisks and to a lesser extent, Vikings.

[Raislin]

I really dont see how anyone could disagree that they need some kind of boost, they are so subpar compared to Mutalisks and to a lesser extent, Vikings.

Even the poster above you who thinks they're awesome had some pretty serious complaints about them. You may agree with this and just didn't elaborate, but the Phoenix is considered air superior to the Mutalisk and the Viking, but you need a number of them to be effective. But that really applies to anything. The only problem is that you won't be able to hit ground, but then there are plenty of ground units that can't hit air.

[Kodiak]

TBH i wish they would bring back that cool attack it did in the intro where it overheats everything and decimates things then goes inactive for a bit.

[Gloju]

One of the most fun games I had was one where my main was wiped, and I was forced to take my terran ally expansion spot. The only forces I had left were phoenix, and I felt pretty useless. Until I realized that my 8 -10 phoenix army completely DESTROYS economy.

All you have to do is find the current income of your opponent and lift scvs one by one... your phoenixes kill them SO fast, that it's basically like a "kill scv" button. pop it eight times, fly to the next expansion, rinse and repeat and your opponent is COMPLETELY out of money.

Air superiority? I don't know, I'll let this thread figure that out. Ultimate harassment unit? DEFINITELY. It's as effective as mutalisk probe-popping, only more fun.

[Raislin]

TBH i wish they would bring back that cool attack it did in the intro where it overheats everything and decimates things then goes inactive for a bit.

This was supposed to be the counter to mass light air units. I believe I recall it absolutely slaughtering Mutalisks before leaving you vulnerable.

[vulcan]

Even the poster above you who thinks they're awesome had some pretty serious complaints about them. You may agree with this and just didn't elaborate, but the Phoenix is considered air superior to the Mutalisk and the Viking, but you need a number of them to be effective. But that really applies to anything. The only problem is that you won't be able to hit ground, but then there are plenty of ground units that can't hit air.


I have put a about 6-7 Phoenix against a similar number of Mutalisk and I usually do cause them to retreat, but they can get more Mutalisks up quicker and just obliterate me. But, I have also gone lots of Phoenix/Stalkers/Sentries against Bahsees/Vikings, and focusing Vikings first still results in me losing my air and ground forces to these units. I know how to Micro, and I just feel overwhelmed even when the numbers are similar.

Mutalisks are my biggest bane though. Perhaps I just need to get better at making Phoenix quicker or something, even though I mass them as soon as I see the Spire go up, which is usually before my Observer is killed or chased.



This was supposed to be the counter to mass light air units. I believe I recall it absolutely slaughtering Mutalisks before leaving you vulnerable.

At Blizzcon 09, I THINK I remember using Overload (been a while) and it was really damn good. I was a bit upset seeing it removed in this, but I guess it had a good reason. I was just hoping they would buff the unit to compensate.

[Stompey]

Pheonix's are a perfect unit that is welcome to starcraft imho. They require micro to use properly and are by no means imbalanced. 1-2 are very weak, but once you get about 6 they can be devastating in any engagement, vs air or ground.

Perfect unit, doenst need change.

[Raislin]

Pheonix's are a perfect unit that is welcome to starcraft imho. They require micro to use properly and are by no means imbalanced. 1-2 are very weak, but once you get about 6 they can be devastating in any engagement, vs air or ground.

Perfect unit, doenst need change.

This may be so. The point of the thread is not to determine if the unit is overpower or underpowered, but to speculate and discuss its strengths and weaknesses to see how it should really be used. It's certainly not the Corsair with Stasis Web, fast attacks and splash damage. It's similar with double attacks and the Graviton Beam, but it's niche seems more complicated.

focusing Vikings first still results in me losing my air and ground forces to these units.

This kind of surprises me if you're using Sentries. The defensive shield would reduce damage on your units significantly. Focus fire the ground on the Vikings and the Phoenix on the Banshees. Hallucinate some extra Phoenix. The Sentry is all mind games and defense tactics (on top of being able to deal respectable damage).

[Aderin]

Well, I tested this out and I was completely wrong. Two to three Phoenix don't really make much difference. Granted, I was in a rough situation by the time they came out, but it took two Graviton Beams two destroy a single squishy Stalker between the 3 Phoenix (only two attacking at once). I imagine it's still nice for removing heavier units like units from the fray temporarily, but you won't be killing Graviton Beamed units in the air with the Phoenix.

I said this before and I'll repeat it: do not treat gravitation beam as a means to kill units. It's more like cyclone. If you have 3 phoenixes, use all 3 phoenixes to gravitation beam. Don't use 1 beam and attempt to kill the unit with the other two. It's just too ineffective because phoenixes' damage is just not good enough.

[Aderin]

Mutalisks are my biggest bane though. Perhaps I just need to get better at making Phoenix quicker or something, even though I mass them as soon as I see the Spire go up, which is usually before my Observer is killed or chased.


The thing is, you really have to get phoenixes pre-emptively. You can't wait for the Spire to go up because, as earlier said, Zerg can mass mutas extremely quickly once their Spire goes up because any of their hatcheries/queens-producing-larva can assist, where-as the stargate is a single building that builds the phoenix rather slowly. If you wait for the Spire to build your phoenixes, you are going to be overwhelmed very quickly.

You need phoenixes BEFORE they get a spire. Hell, before they get a lair even, I don't care. T1 Zerg units can't attack air, except for the queen, but phoenixes can pop the queen really effectively. Harass his overlords before he gets units that can attack air. If he ends up not going mutas, then you effectively just warded off your biggest threat. Remember that even if he doesn't have air, phoenixes can support your ground forces with "cyclone."

[Smellycheese]

Phoenixes are awesome for Ovie Harassment, and an incredible compliment to the Dark Templar versus Terran(Ravens are Lightly Armored, Ghosts can be graviton'd, DTs can burst down a turret).

They're very lackluster versus anything that can actually return fire though. Every Single Flying Unit that can hit air, save solely for the muta, is heavily armored.

[Malkgray]

The only problem I have with phoenixes, like many other people, is that I haven't experimented with them enough. I tend to forget about the gravitron beam, or whatever it is called. I need to check it out more.

[Malkgray]

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23767157319&sid=3000#7


Q. Are there any potential balance tweaks to Phoenixes and/or Mutalisks being considered? Do you consider these units balanced?

A. We are happy with the current relationship between Mutalisks and Phoenixes. That doesn't mean we won't see problems in the future or there may even be current problems that have not yet come to our attention. We don't consider anything "balanced" yet. =)