God just fix zerg detection already

[Talbs]

please give zerg this unit to fix zerg detection


Lolserver
cost: 50min 100gas
supply: 1
flying unit, average speed, detects



i would rather be able to spend 50min 100gas on a flying 1food unit that isnt cloaked than buy an overseer. when my overseer dies i lost a supply depot plus a detecter. VERY LAME. in large 5base vs 5base 1v1 games theres sometimes 15 small battles durnig the game. smart toss/terran get banshee/dt in their army and theres dancing of armies and micro. i keep my overseer far enough away to detect banshee and my overseer still gets focus fired


my problem is not in the fact that my overseer gets focus fired. thats fine. i dont really lose the battle because of it because i focus fired my enemies cloaked units before my overseer died so after its all done its simply uncloaked army vs uncloaked army and it comes down to unit combinations and micro


my problem is that when my overseer dies i just lost a 100min supply depot along with my detecter unit.

WHAT TEH F???


that is a double punishment.


zerg is designed right now to get f'ed in the A in the detecction department. fix it. because i dont think it really is a good gameplay design





real solution would be to make a 400min/400gas upgrade to give all overlords detection, meaning in long games with 15 battles i dotn spend 1500gas on overseers. but also keep the overseer upgrade so zerg could get 1 overseer early for early detection

[Unsuspected]

While we're at it, why not give zergs warpgates?

Sound like you want to play Toss.

[Gemini]

The overseer is a bit expensive, at 150 min/100 gas. Raven has several offensive abilities. Observers are cloaked.

I suppose you can use some sporecrawlers to save the 100 gas.

They do keep the supply, but losing them can be pretty costly. Losing an observer isnt that big of a deal.

[Decay]

I agree something needs to be modified with zerg detection. I made a similar thread a week ago with some ideas.

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23710861313&sid=5000

[Dronmor]

i completely disagree.

protoss have it the bestish since observers are permacloaked but easily sniped

terran have it the worse since ravens are a pain to get out

zerg have it great since overseers are EASILY replaceable and expendabel (despite waht some seem to think)

don't say orbital command scan costs 150, the mule gathers around 300 resources, every time terran scan, they just lost 300 minerals

thats pretty steep.

[Talbs]

comsat is much better

i personally believe mule is pretty overpowered at giving 250 bonus minerals per cast. so u use yolur easy detection and have to miss a cast of your overpowered mule, thats fine



observers are much better because they cost 125 less min, 75 less gas, and when they die you didnt lose a supply depot. and they are cloaked....

[Payback]

Races are different? wtf

[Omniance]

i completely disagree.

protoss have it the bestish since observers are permacloaked but easily sniped

terran have it the worse since ravens are a pain to get out

zerg have it great since overseers are EASILY replaceable and expendabel (despite waht some seem to think)

don't say orbital command scan costs 150, the mule gathers around 300 resources, every time terran scan, they just lost 300 minerals

thats pretty steep.

You need to look at the bigger picture. Losing 300 Minerals because you didn't MULE once, doesn't mean anything when you can Scan one time and save 300+ Minerals worth of units from being destroyed, and/or destroy 300+ Minerals worth of your opponent's units.

The Overseer essentialy costs 150 Minerals and 100 Gas. The same cost as a Corrupter. On top of that it provides food for the Zerg. When it dies not only have you lost 150 Minerals and 100 Gas, you've lost 8 food. Which means you're going to have to build another Overlord to replace it, which will cost an additional 100 minerals, and because you've just lost one of the very few detectors that you have, you'll likely have to morph another Overseer from a different Overlord to replace it. This brings the cost of losing an Overseer to a grand total of 300 Minerals, 200 Gas, and 8 Food. No other race sacrifices this many resources when they lose their detector. On top of this, the Overseer is the only mobile detector the Zerg has, effectively bringing them from the best detector race, to the downright worst.

[Decay]

i completely disagree.

protoss have it the bestish since observers are permacloaked but easily sniped

terran have it the worse since ravens are a pain to get out

zerg have it great since overseers are EASILY replaceable and expendabel (despite waht some seem to think)

don't say orbital command scan costs 150, the mule gathers around 300 resources, every time terran scan, they just lost 300 minerals

thats pretty steep.

If you think an invisible observer is "easily sniped", then you must think that overseers are even easier to take out since theyre just sittin in the middle of battle.

I also wouldnt call 150/100 "easily replaceable and expendable".

And I just have to lol at the opportunity cost argument. I could just as easily say that the larva that I made my overlord/overseer into COULD have been made into a drone which would have gathered me thousands of resources. Therefore overseers costs THOUSANDS each, lol.

[Rsb]

I kind of agree. The overseers are pretty expensive when you consider that Observers are insanely cheap and perma-invis, when Overseers are a large bright blue floating thing that virtually screams "SHOOT ME DOWN SO HE CANT MAKE MORE MUTAS!!"

[Azile]

The cost is a little steep, but that's not where the problem lies.

The problem, as the OP stated, lies in the fact that every overseer killed is pylon/supply depot as well.

You can argue it till you're blue in the face it's not balanced in any way shape or form and the only reason it's not more of a glaring issue at the moment is because very few cloaked units are being utilized at the gold/platinum level.

[Worax]

I'm just going to throw my 2 sents in here... and plz correct me if I am wrong because its been a while since I've played sc1.

-Overlord automatically Detected
-Hydralisks were built: spawning pool then hydralisk den
-Hydralisks could attack air.

Now:
-Overlords can't detect unless you upgrade them at a ridiculous cost.
-Hydralisks can only be build after: spawning pool then lair then hydralisk den. (this is our cheapest anti air unit and the best one).

Nothing has changed for protoss or terran significantly with regards to tier1 tier 2. They get anti-air at roughly the same time now as they did in sc1.

My point is the following...

We lost detection, and we lost anti-air (early). Both combined make things really hard for us in 1vs1. Too hard imo. Due to how protoss and terran wall themselves in... Scouting is very difficult for us too, and risky.

This isn't a QQ... Its just an opinion... But it feels wrong, balance wise.

[Talbs]

a lot of pro and platinum replays i see lately show dt and banshee vs zerg mainly to take advantage of zergs weakness of detection

[Talbs]

I'm just going to throw my 2 sents in here... and plz correct me if I am wrong because its been a while since I've played sc1.

-Overlord automatically Detected
-Hydralisks were built: spawning pool then hydralisk den
-Hydralisks could attack air.

Now:
-Overlords can't detect unless you upgrade them at a ridiculous cost.
-Hydralisks can only be build after: spawning pool then lair then hydralisk den. (this is our cheapest anti air unit and the best one).

Nothing has changed for protoss or terran significantly with regards to tier1 tier 2. They get anti-air at roughly the same time now as they did in sc1.

My point is the following...

We lost detection, and we lost anti-air (early). Both combined make things really hard for us in 1vs1. Too hard imo. Due to how protoss and terran wall themselves in... Scouting is very difficult for us too, and risky.

This isn't a QQ... Its just an opinion... But it feels wrong, balance wise.



queens attack air units and can handle an air rush if you build 2 of them which is a good idea cuz they heal themself at 3hp per mana (just as strong as a medivac) and their damage is not too pathetic vs air


queens are 150gold and are not too bad of an anti air unit when compared to stalkers. in fact queens as far as battle ability goes heavily rivals a stalker because they heal eachother but building queens takes away hatchery upgrade time

[Colrath]

Take control of the map.

/end game

[Omniance]

Take control of the map.

/end game

Hard to do that sometimes when you can't reliably see some of the units that are pushing your forces back. Asking for a decent detector unit isn't too much.

[Terralisk]

Zerg detection does need help. Too long to get, costs too much, too fragile.

[Krabpeople]

I just thought of this idea, it may be stupid, but.

What about the changeling being the detector instead of the overseer?

[Colrath]

I just thought of this idea, it may be stupid, but.

What about the changeling being the detector instead of the overseer?

Give the unit with 1 HP the detection ability, and limited based on mana? Cool story bro.

If you're spreading your creep, you should see all around your base. With a couple of detectors in your base, and ones with your main army, whats the problem?

[Omniance]

If you're spreading your creep, you should see all around your base. With a couple of detectors in your base, and ones with your main army, whats the problem?



Did you even read the thread?

[Raz]

I'm just going to throw my 2 sents in here... and plz correct me if I am wrong because its been a while since I've played sc1.

-Overlord automatically Detected
-Hydralisks were built: spawning pool then hydralisk den
-Hydralisks could attack air.

Now:
-Overlords can't detect unless you upgrade them at a ridiculous cost.
-Hydralisks can only be build after: spawning pool then lair then hydralisk den. (this is our cheapest anti air unit and the best one).


Overlord required an upgrade to be able to detect. Once upgraded, they were all detector. This was a bit too powerful in my opinion. They need to find a compromise between the two. I think the way it is right now is fine but they should lower the cost to something like 50/50 or 100/25

Hydralisk are much more powerful than in SC1 now. Yes you can't get them as early but It's not really necessary early in the game. They would be too strong as is if they were in tier 1.

[Colrath]

Did you even read the thread?

Yup, and I'm telling you guys to suck it up.

Overseers are fine, changlings are amazing. If you're lucky, they can sit directly inside an enemy base, totally by-passing the detectors, something observers do not have the luxury of.

I never depend on my overseers for food, I always build extra overlords. Who doesn't build extra supply depots? Who doesn't build extra pylons?

Other races do not get the luxury of completely surrounding your entire main base, and a highway to your expansions that provide speed bonus to all your units and sight.

[Luso]

I think zerg detection is fine, just lower the cost to 50/50 and give overseers more health imo.

[Pdc]

I really think the only problem is their cost. 100 gas is hefty price for something that provides no (meaningful) extra value other than detection. Compare to the observer which is great for spying, and the raven which is 200 gas but is incredibly versatile and powerful.

It's not a question of homogenization. Having a burrowed detector that could move would be too similar to observers (as an example).

Giving the overseer something more useful to do would be a reasonable alternative.

[Omniance]

Yup, and I'm telling you guys to suck it up.

Overseers are fine, changlings are amazing. If you're lucky, they can sit directly inside an enemy base, totally by-passing the detectors, something observers do not have the luxury of.

I never depend on my overseers for food, I always build extra overlords. Who doesn't build extra supply depots? Who doesn't build extra pylons?

Other races do not get the luxury of completely surrounding your entire main base, and a highway to your expansions that provide speed bonus to all your units and sight.

Seriously, then read it again. This is Beta, not release, we're here to make these kinds of suggestions, not "suck it up". We've provided ample points as to why the Overseer is an inferior detector when compared to the other races (inferior meaning that it's not balanced, as balance indicates equality not superiority). Changelings are amazing, but they're worthless against an intelligent opponent, and this isn't a discussion over Changelings, it's one over the Overseer itself, and Zerg's lack of a reliable and relatively cheap Detector.

[Colrath]

I really think the only problem is their cost. 100 gas is hefty price for something that provides no (meaningful) extra value other than detection. Compare to the observer which is great for spying, and the raven which is 200 gas but is incredibly versatile and powerful.

It's not a question of homogenization. Having a burrowed detector that could move would be too similar to observers (as an example).

Giving the overseer something more useful to do would be a reasonable alternative.

As I already pointed out, changlings are amazing, and they're not subject to detectors, but players ability to notice small details. Ravens are much slower than Overseerers, and much later teir than people are giving credit for. I always have an excessive supply over overlords around the map to turn into overseers when needed, not the similar luxury Terran have.

[Neberus]

Overseer:

Minerals 50</li> Vespene 100</li> Build Time 17</li> Mutater Overlord </li> Requires Lair</li> Hit Points 200</li> Energy 200</li> Armor: 1</li> Movement: Normal</li> Modifiers: Armored - Biological - Air</li> Supply bonus: +2</li>

[Decay]

Supply bonus: +2</li>

I honestly wouldnt want additional supply added to overseers as the "balancing factor" for their expense. Doing that only creates a bigger target for opponents to aim for in battle. Then WHEN our overseers get killed (which they always do) we'd lose 10 supply instead of 8, crippling us even more.

Lowering the expense would work a lot better IMO.

[Dronmor]

as has been previously stated, i always have plenty of overlords that can be turned into and overseer at any time, the way I see it is, you get the 8 supply for 100, a supply that can move OUT of harms way btw, and for a LOW cost of 50/100 you get a detecter, its easy to make few overseersto act as detecters/scouts and make a few extra overlords as a buffer so your not all of a sudden need to spawn more.

aside from observers, which are very weak and can be sniped once you have the detecter thats easy to get, we have the cheapest one. the best comparison is ravens whoa re much later in the tier. the only things that cloak and need to be worried about are, banshees (mutas can take care of) DT(squishy) and ghosts (ubersqucishy and inefective vs zerg) i'm ignoring motherships since they can be FF down and observers which aren't a threat at all

the way i see it, we have a very easily mass-produced detecter that has a pretty decent movement speed and offers ALOT of utility through changelings that can be replaced in seconds and it being destroyed barely effects your production.

destroy an observer, protoss has to stop making colossi/immortals/warp priss to replace
destroy a raven, terran needs to stop BC/banshee/medivac to replace it
destroy an overseer, Zerg player makes one of his overlords one and isn't inconvenienced

[Dronmor]

I honestly wouldnt want additional supply added to overseers as the "balancing factor" for their expense. Doing that only creates a bigger target for opponents to aim for in battle. Then WHEN our overseers get killed (which they always do) we'd lose 10 supply instead of 8, crippling us even more.

Lowering the expense would work a lot better IMO.

crippling? CRIPPLING? i don't believe you play zerg at all, if all you do when you max out your supply is make one, then max out again, your doing it wrong, whenever run out of supply i make SEVERAL. let them FF my overseers, i don't care, every overseer they kill is bought with the blood of their troops, and i have another overseer within seconds, i always have excess supply, because i make sure i can afford to lose a couple to scouting or raids.

ya, we lose overseers, its natural, when you attack protoss, you go for the pylons, hitting supply is a good strat, but not a crippling one, it is a delaying one, and at least our supply can just run away (pretty decently with the speed boost)

[Payback]

zerg detection was WAY too strong in sc1 though, so don't think giving overlords detection again is the answer

[Fuse]

During the time an enemy is chasing/attacking the overseer...you are probably going to kill more of his units than the resources the overseer cost. I think.

Unless your overseer is just chilling in the middle of nowhere all by himself.

[Nataku]

Its not that they are supply, but that they dont do anything else. i made a post with an idea a few days ago : http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23767637525&postId=237651589644&sid=5000#0

its more longwinded then i intended but you get the idea. Dont get me wrong, i love the changeling alot and the overseer is an interesting unit... but all it literaly does is sit there, no real play to it... lost to cloaked terran when i had hydra because he took out overseer so fast.

[Reginkunnr]

As a Protoss player, I think Zerg detection needs help. I've won games against Zerg players who, although clearly better than me in macro and micro, simply didn't have enough (or any, if they forgot) Overseers. I've beaten Zerg players who were better than me with a handful of Dark Templars. Their only mistake was not allocating enough resources for mutating large amounts of Overlords, or forgetting that the upgrade doesn't automatically make them detectors, they still have to spend more resources on individual ones.

However, I think the issue presented by the OP was that the supply unit is also the detector. As others have said, every other Zerg player but the OP seems to have more than enough overlords. I always have more pylons than I need, because my supply building serves more than one purpose: if a pylon is destroyed, the buildings around it don't work. So I build extra pylons to have enough psi, and I also build them to overlap certain buildings in the power grid.

[Minos]

I will admit, the price is pretty steep compared to an observer, which doesn't have the liability of being a supply unit, and is perma cloaked.

[Atlantas]

i completely disagree.


zerg have it great since overseers are EASILY replaceable and expendabel (despite waht some seem to think)



thats pretty steep.

a 200 hp flyer that translates to 150 minerals 150 gas -8 limit is not exactly called easily replaceable man . Anyway.. i am 100% positive that something with change in that unit. It is a very high value target at the moment and good players will exploit that, and blizzard will take notice i have no doubt.. but until then zerg players will suffer a bit.. thats life.

[Krintar]

Races are different? wtf
You just blew my mind man.

[Colrath]

Seriously, then read it again. This is Beta, not release, we're here to make these kinds of suggestions, not "suck it up". We've provided ample points as to why the Overseer is an inferior detector when compared to the other races (inferior meaning that it's not balanced, as balance indicates equality not superiority). Changelings are amazing, but they're worthless against an intelligent opponent, and this isn't a discussion over Changelings, it's one over the Overseer itself, and Zerg's lack of a reliable and relatively cheap Detector.

I find, "Suck it up" to be perfectly reasonable. Just because this is a beta doesn't mean we should be trying to homogenize the races.

I can drop in 5-6 changlins without ever putting my overseer in serious danger, as soon an observer is spotted and killed, it's dead. As soon as a player fills his base with detectors, an observer wont be getting inside there any day, I've snuck in plenty of times with Missile Turrets or Cannons surrounding the base. Sure, most of the time a competent player wont let the changling into their base, but sometimes that's just not the case and it slips through the cracks.

Overseers are steep in the cost, but effective in their performance.

[Dronmor]

a 200 hp flyer that translates to 150 minerals 150 gas -8 limit is not exactly called easily replaceable man . Anyway.. i am 100% positive that something with change in that unit. It is a very high value target at the moment and good players will exploit that, and blizzard will take notice i have no doubt.. but until then zerg players will suffer a bit.. thats life.

ya, it IS easily replacable, because all i do, is spend 50/100 and wait a few seconds and problem solved.

ANY zerg player that does not have plenty of overseers as soon as they get lair fails and deserves to be DT rushed

they may cost more than observers (but cheaper than ravens i believe) but they are alot herder to kill

[Dronmor]

Its not that they are supply, but that they dont do anything else. i made a post with an idea a few days ago : http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23767637525&postId=237651589644&sid=5000#0

its more longwinded then i intended but you get the idea. Dont get me wrong, i love the changeling alot and the overseer is an interesting unit... but all it literaly does is sit there, no real play to it... lost to cloaked terran when i had hydra because he took out overseer so fast.

then you fail if you lose to cloaked, make more than 1 and spread them out, keep them defended.

why SHOULD they do more? they are great durable detecters

whatabout observers? so what if they're cloaked if they get killed the second they get near a base/army by anyone competent? overseers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>observers and ravens are pretty far in the tech tree and only become really useful after seeker missiles, a T3 upgrade, get my point yet?

[Divine]

don't say orbital command scan costs 150, the mule gathers around 300 resources, every time terran scan, they just lost 300 minerals

thats pretty steep.

This is the dumbest comment on this thread by far. It's like saying.. everytime I use my chrono boost on warpgate or army production, I lose xxx amount of mineral or If I use queen to spawn larva but not make drones, I lose xxx amount of mineral.

YOU DON'T LOSE ANYTHING.. you just don't gain the bonus resource and comsat is so much overpowered compared to all other detecting... it's the ONLY GOD DAMN detection that cannot get shot down but for not-too-short period of time with no resource COST (not bonus!) but just mana that gets replenished

[Zaq]

Overseers are fine, they are just too expensive to create (particularly on gas).

Decrease their gas cost and increase the mana required to cast changeling.

[Dronmor]

This is the dumbest comment on this thread by far. It's like saying.. everytime I use my chrono boost on warpgate or army production, I lose xxx amount of mineral or If I use queen to spawn larva but not make drones, I lose xxx amount of mineral.

YOU DON'T LOSE ANYTHING.. you just don't gain the bonus resource and comsat is so much overpowered compared to all other detecting... it's the ONLY GOD DAMN detection that cannot get shot down but for not-too-short period of time with no resource COST (not bonus!) but just mana that gets replenished

see what happens if all a terran player does is scan, they'll fall behind simply because they can't keep up with the gathering.

of course using chronoboost/spawn larvae and not making workers doesn't cost minerals, you already used them to boost your economy

[Dronmor]

Overseers are fine, they are just too expensive to create (particularly on gas).

Decrease their gas cost and increase the mana required to cast changeling.

you obviosily skipped the entire thread, overseers aren't too expensive, they're more expensive than observers because they're tuffer, overseer cost is fine

[Divine]

see what happens if all a terran player does is scan, they'll fall behind simply because they can't keep up with the gathering.

of course using chronoboost/spawn larvae and not making workers doesn't cost minerals, you already used them to boost your economy

this seems to get dumber with each reply... Why would terran player use all the base's (assuming 1 base right at the beginning and not 2 command centers) mana for scanning? Just like how we don't chrono boost our nexus thoughout the whole thing, terran bases have (with a small upgrade) possibly the strongest detection mechanism in the whole game for no resource cost

NO RESOURCE COST

That's the whole point. Yes, they'll fall behind if they CONSTANTLY spam comsat but why would they??

They also have universal reactors you can fit into their army production buildings that can double their army production while protoss has to share their chrono boost with army too and same with zerg's spawn larva... toss and zerg have to use their mana to do other things beside chrono boost their nexus or make drones the whole game...

[Dronmor]

this seems to get dumber with each reply... Why would terran player use all the base's (assuming 1 base right at the beginning and not 2 command centers) mana for scanning? Just like how we don't chrono boost our nexus thoughout the whole thing, terran bases have (with a small upgrade) possibly the strongest detection mechanism in the whole game for no resource cost

NO RESOURCE COST

That's the whole point. Yes, they'll fall behind if they CONSTANTLY spam comsat but why would they??

They also have universal reactors you can fit into their army production buildings that can double their army production while protoss has to share their chrono boost with army too and same with zerg's spawn larva... toss and zerg have to use their mana to do other things beside chrono boost their nexus or make drones the whole game...

what do you chrono boost at the start? your nexus.
what do you spawn at the start? drones (by using spawn larva they can have 1 hatchery function like 2 or 3 so they can pump out drones AND units pretty quickly)
so, we have both zerg and protoss pumping out MORE workers than the terran early game, what do they have to counterbalance? mules
by not using mules they'll fall behind, and yes they can use reacters to speed up making units, but only a couple units can be sped up like this, making it next to useless early game and pretty much only useful on a couple so that you can still make your important forces, try making only marines, see how that turns out

[Divine]

what do you chrono boost at the start? your nexus.
what do you spawn at the start? drones (by using spawn larva they can have 1 hatchery function like 2 or 3 so they can pump out drones AND units pretty quickly)
so, we have both zerg and protoss pumping out MORE workers than the terran early game, what do they have to counterbalance? mules
by not using mules they'll fall behind, and yes they can use reacters to speed up making units, but only a couple units can be sped up like this, making it next to useless early game and pretty much only useful on a couple so that you can still make your important forces, try making only marines, see how that turns out

why do you always tell me to try something extreme? I laughed when you said reactors are useless.. really? How early are we talking about here? Are you talking about just when you hit about 13 supply count and JUST finished making a barracks? Because yes.. why would you make a reactor right there... since you need refiner too... and hopefully you're building more than one barracks with tech lab to make those stronger units ... tech lab seems to be pretty unbalanced considering we have to make a whole new more expensive building.. but yes it's balanced by the fact that you have to build one per rax but not in early game.. since you probably need only 1 or maybe even 2.

After chrono boost, making more probe and with spawn larva, making more drone is a commitment. You're stuck with the more supply and your 50 mineral loss. M.U.L.E obviously a different mechanic that you can get decently early game with only mana commitment. It sounds fair to me that they're a little (emphasis on little) later in the game

[Dronmor]

why do you always tell me to try something extreme? I laughed when you said reactors are useless.. really? How early are we talking about here? Are you talking about just when you hit about 13 supply count and JUST finished making a barracks? Because yes.. why would you make a reactor right there... since you need refiner too... and hopefully you're building more than one barracks with tech lab to make those stronger units ... tech lab seems to be pretty unbalanced considering we have to make a whole new more expensive building.. but yes it's balanced by the fact that you have to build one per rax but not in early game.. since you probably need only 1 or maybe even 2.

After chrono boost, making more probe and with spawn larva, making more drone is a commitment. You're stuck with the more supply and your 50 mineral loss. M.U.L.E obviously a different mechanic that you can get decently early game with only mana commitment. It sounds fair to me that they're a little (emphasis on little) later in the game

al i'm saying is not using mules causes your oponent an advantage in resources, erego, using scan can make you fall behind economically

[Rayne]

You need to look at the bigger picture. Losing 300 Minerals because you didn't MULE once, doesn't mean anything when you can Scan one time and save 300+ Minerals worth of units from being destroyed, and/or destroy 300+ Minerals worth of your opponent's units.

The Overseer essentialy costs 150 Minerals and 100 Gas. The same cost as a Corrupter. On top of that it provides food for the Zerg. When it dies not only have you lost 150 Minerals and 100 Gas, you've lost 8 food. Which means you're going to have to build another Overlord to replace it, which will cost an additional 100 minerals, and because you've just lost one of the very few detectors that you have, you'll likely have to morph another Overseer from a different Overlord to replace it. This brings the cost of losing an Overseer to a grand total of 300 Minerals, 200 Gas, and 8 Food. No other race sacrifices this many resources when they lose their detector. On top of this, the Overseer is the only mobile detector the Zerg has, effectively bringing them from the best detector race, to the downright worst.

It's been this way since SC1, a good tactic is not losing your overlords. There has to be at least one downside to being able to create 21 units at once with 3 hatcheries, not including the extra 21 you get when spawning zerglings. Don'tcha think?

[Lazz]

I never depend on my overseers for food, I always build extra overlords. Who doesn't build extra supply depots? Who doesn't build extra pylons?

Good players?

[Blackrend]

If you think an invisible observer is "easily sniped", then you must think that overseers are even easier to take out since theyre just sittin in the middle of battle.

I also wouldnt call 150/100 "easily replaceable and expendable".

And I just have to lol at the opportunity cost argument. I could just as easily say that the larva that I made my overlord/overseer into COULD have been made into a drone which would have gathered me thousands of resources. Therefore overseers costs THOUSANDS each, lol.


Lemme explain it to some one of your slow intellect.

Minerals have a maximum drone saturation point. At some point (24 to be exact 3 per patch) drones/scv/probes collect no faster, assuming youre maximizing your collection your lost opportunity cost by building your overlord is only the minerals youre behind based on delaying saturation those few extra seconds (1 min per second actually). This is not the case in a mule sinces it ignores saturation levels because it mines regardless of an scv working the cluster.

[Dronmor]

Good players?
so your saying good player get spawn more overlords/pylons/supply depots every 2 seconds cause they only make them only when needed and only 1 at a time?

that doesn't sound right to me

[Azile]

so your saying good player get spawn more overlords/pylons/supply depots every 2 seconds cause they only make them only when needed and only 1 at a time?

that doesn't sound right to me

Yes because there's no middle ground between hitting the supply cap and just making extra overlords so you don't get screwed by losing overseers.

Were you born that way?

[Takon]

al i'm saying is not using mules causes your oponent an advantage in resources, erego, using scan can make you fall behind economically

what you need to realize (as someone pointed out earlier) however is that by using the scan properly can help you save hundreds of minerals by building the hard counter to his forces.

on top of this you have to realize that a terran player isn't going to have just one command center, we are talking about (assuming at least one expansion) the potential for 400 energy (8 abilities when fully charged) worth of abilities to be used as the terran player sees fit.

i don't think a terran player should have any trouble keeping up in terms of economy OR scouting OR detection when combined with missle turrets with so much energy to player with.

and to someone earlier in the thread about the life expectancy of an observer vs an overseer, the observer is cloaked. durrr, i would hope it had an inferior life pool when compared to an overseer, especially after the hefty resource investment to obtain an overseer.

and that's the problem, the overseer is just too costly when compared to the detection capabilities of zerg. the overlord/overseer has multiple functions:

- serves as food supply
- intended to be the reconnaissance unit of the zerg through detection/use of changling
- and it can be used as a transport

losing one is a brutal hit.


the solution?

there are a couple ways to do this, one could be to add more detection capabilities to the zerg at the home front by introducing an upgrade at the hatchery called something cheesy like "heightened senses" that reduce the cost of overseer transformation by 25/50 and increases their sight range/detection range.

[Nezdragon]

... Aren't the Zerg defense towers still detectors? And they can be mobile. Just a thought.

[sharkbait]

Zerg have the ability to switch strats and masses pretty quickly. With one building, all of your hatcheries can produce that unit. If a toss or terran want to switch masses, they have to make more of that building type.

The way to balance this is by giving the other two races better scouting, so they can plan ahead, where as zerg can be in the dark but adapt much more quickly.

Maybe that's the thought process behind it?

[Dronmor]

what you need to realize (as someone pointed out earlier) however is that by using the scan properly can help you save hundreds of minerals by building the hard counter to his forces.

on top of this you have to realize that a terran player isn't going to have just one command center, we are talking about (assuming at least one expansion) the potential for 400 energy (8 abilities when fully charged) worth of abilities to be used as the terran player sees fit.

i don't think a terran player should have any trouble keeping up in terms of economy OR scouting OR detection when combined with missle turrets with so much energy to player with.

and to someone earlier in the thread about the life expectancy of an observer vs an overseer, the observer is cloaked. durrr, i would hope it had an inferior life pool when compared to an overseer, especially after the hefty resource investment to obtain an overseer.

and that's the problem, the overseer is just too costly when compared to the detection capabilities of zerg. the overlord/overseer has multiple functions:

- serves as food supply
- intended to be the reconnaissance unit of the zerg through detection/use of changling
- and it can be used as a transport

losing one is a brutal hit.


the solution?

there are a couple ways to do this, one could be to add more detection capabilities to the zerg at the home front by introducing an upgrade at the hatchery called something cheesy like "heightened senses" that reduce the cost of overseer transformation by 25/50 and increases their sight range/detection range.




DESTROYING AN OVERSEER IS NOT A BRUTAL HIT
just make another overseer from one of your overlords and make overlords like you usually do

[Talbs]

of course everyone builds extra depots, but what sucks is that your losing one anyway regardless if you have extras. you lost 150min 100gas when an overlord dies and toss's detection is cloaked and terrans comsat cant die / raven is better

[Omniance]

DESTROYING AN OVERSEER IS NOT A BRUTAL HIT
just make another overseer from one of your overlords and make overlords like you usually do

So you're telling me that losing 150 Minerals, 100 gas, and 8 food supply on a unit that pretty much does nothing but detect and scout isn't a poor investment? How can you even say this when an Observer costs 25 Minerals, 75 Gas, 1 food and is permanently cloaked? At least the Raven has some offensive abilities that come with it's detection.

Losing an Overseer isn't a game-breaking event, but it does cost way too much to get something that's inferior to all other detectors in the game, especially since you'll need multiples of them, it's not as if you're only going to build 1 that's going to last you the whole game. I usually have to make three or more if the game lasts too long.

Overseers shouldn't cost more than Mutalisks, or as much as Corrupters.

[Worax]

I'l admit now that I have not read the whole thread...

Either way Overseers are too expensive for what they do, but do you guys think that maybe uping its powers might be a solution?

What if they had the same ability as the Sensor Tower once upgraded?

Minus the ability to be seen where they are.

[Omniance]

I'l admit now that I have not read the whole thread...

Either way Overseers are too expensive for what they do, but do you guys think that maybe uping its powers might be a solution?

What if they had the same ability as the Sensor Tower once upgraded?

Minus the ability to be seen where they are.



I don't think taking abilities from other races and sticking them somewhere is what should be done in SC2. Homogenizing the races would be the worst choice of action.

They just need to either make the Overseer cost less, or increase its survivability somehow by raising it's hit points and/or armor, or giving it some kind of defensive abilities to make sure it isn't just a giant floating eye-covered piñata with a huge target painted across it's face on the field of battle.

[Dronmor]

I'l admit now that I have not read the whole thread...

Either way Overseers are too expensive for what they do, but do you guys think that maybe uping its powers might be a solution?

What if they had the same ability as the Sensor Tower once upgraded?

Minus the ability to be seen where they are.



please read the whole thread, i make SEVERAL good arguments that show overseers are fine

as for the people who complain that 150/100 is too expensive, lets take a look

all supply is equal to 100 min, erego, the changeling ability and the scout ability is 50/100
the observer is 25/75 i believe, and is ALOT more fragile, making it pretty much useless as more than a 1 scout deal, whereas the overseer can be used to scout (via changeling) for the entire game.
the raven is also a detecter and is pretty high up there in resources, moves about same speed as overseer, and its ability's (aside from seeker) is next to useless.

observers are at the same place as overseer, cost less, are worse scouts, and next to useless in battle, since it will take .5 seconds to snipe one

the overseer, is not expensive (though not cheap) provides scouting for the entire game, taht can follow an army with little ability to be caught is decently durable

the raven is expensive, next to useless until T3 upgrade and is less durable than overseer

[Colrath]

150m/100g/8supply > The cost of not scouting your enemy, which can easily loose you the game.

/thread

[Vexorian]

Oversees cost 150m / 100g / -8 supply.

/thread

^^

[Dronmor]

well, at least the 2 above me are on my side

[Akatsuki]

Zerg has another means of detection actually. A bit different and odd. but I always seem to have it when I need it. Infesters have that plague/vomit. Which you can actually target the ground/air and cast the ability. If u hit them the units will be uncloaked. and take dmg.. along with other support options infesters have. they are quite amazing.

[Dronmor]

Zerg has another means of detection actually. A bit different and odd. but I always seem to have it when I need it. Infesters have that plague/vomit. Which you can actually target the ground/air and cast the ability. If u hit them the units will be uncloaked. and take dmg.. along with other support options infesters have. they are quite amazing.

never seen one used actually....

[Cacophony]

Zerg has another means of detection actually. A bit different and odd. but I always seem to have it when I need it. Infesters have that plague/vomit. Which you can actually target the ground/air and cast the ability. If u hit them the units will be uncloaked. and take dmg.. along with other support options infesters have. they are quite amazing.

There are a couple of other support casters who have "temporary detector" spells. I think EMP and psi storm were like that. Can't remember, though.