Desert oasis gives advantage to zerg [Archive]

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:17 PM

Wait, explain to me why wanting a fourth race is bad?What else would you expect from someone who depends on crap other than their own skill in order to keep winning? like a preset map layout, or a fixed number of races, for example :P

You are bashing on the guy who runs the "ask a platinum terran" thread.Yeah? Let's have them play on Desert Oasis only and see what league they end up in :P

maybe they should make separate Leagues for each map, amirite? （の＿の）

Kinaesthesia

03-18-2010, 07:18 PM

You are bashing on the guy who runs the "ask a platinum terran" thread.

And you are the guy who wants a fourth race for Starcraft.

I, in my Bronze league, say this to you:

Scrub.

Even your ad hominem is flawed.

Says something about a guy who has flawed flaws >_>

Vorador

03-18-2010, 07:19 PM

Shinosai, not flaming you but why is this map so good for Zerg? Seems like the distance to the natural is more of a disadvantage and I can't see any other reason.

The reason is obvious. Terran mobility is the worst of all 3 races and since it takes longer than any other map to get to your opponents base, the zerg can FE guaranteed every time.

Crazyterran

03-18-2010, 07:20 PM

What else would you expect from someone who depends on crap other than their own skill in order to keep winning? like a preset map layout, or a fixed number of races, for example :P

Another race would be retarded in Starcraft, Three of them is already plenty, unless you want homogenization and the chance for the new race being Over powered, which is what typically happens.

And who would you add? Most races that have been encountered previously have been eaten by the Zerg or are not a significant enough player to make a scene, other then the Xel'naga 'super beings' which will only be in the game for the Story Mode, in which we do something heroic to stop them from wiping out the Kopoluru (sp) sector.

Games like Dawn of War had like 8 races, and while I enjoy Warhammer 40,000, that game was a terribly broken and unbalanced game.

Homogenization = Bad, keeping 3 races that are distinctly different is better than Four races. Name one race that would make sense, since the Xel'naga sure as hell wouldn't.

My wins/losses are spread pretty evenly on most maps, other than Scrap Station. That map freakin' hates me, man.

Yeah? Let's have them play on Desert Oasis only and see what league they end up in :P

maybe they should make separate Leagues for each map, amirite? （の＿の）

I have no problems with Desert Oasis. I can't think of what the unbalance is, other than the ease of being able to defend multiple expansions from your main base.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:21 PM

Emzier

03-18-2010, 07:22 PM

A lot of the other maps gives advantage to Terran with the choke.

Suicidemech

03-18-2010, 07:23 PM

Scrub

I'm surprised you would lash out like that shinosai. It's slightly disappointing.

I've been watching a lot of replays of this map, and i think i do agree with you that zerg are slightly favored on that map.

However, it should be considered that maps with tight ramps favor protoss and terran since they can climb the ramp and walk into the zerg players base since zerg cannot wall off like protoss or terran.

My two cents anyway...

Crazyterran

03-18-2010, 07:24 PM

I've actually won more as Terran than any other race on that map. Love that, oh and Scrap Station as well <3

That & Desert Oasis are the most imaginative and interesting 1v1 maps out for SC2 right now.

Here's that replay of BC > Z: http://www.mediafire.com/?zrjtzjumzkm

Scrap Station is fun. I just get around that corner with the rush too slow, and then they lay on the pain for my foolishness.

That bend hates me, and breaking the rocks wouldn't work D:

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:25 PM

I'm surprised you would lash out like that shinosai. He might just be a troll and you're feeding him.Shinosai's just kidding - No need to make anything out of that :P

as for me I am quite sick of the QQ against anything innovative, like maps with non-standard layouts.

Fwump

03-18-2010, 07:26 PM

Somebody said that terran can use siege tanks to take out the nexus/hatchery. Is this true?

Crazyterran

03-18-2010, 07:27 PM

as for me I am quite sick of the QQ against anything innovative, like maps with non-standard layouts.

While I hate your new race ideas, And dislike Desert Oasis due to my general lack of mobility compared to the other races, new and innovative maps are a good thing, I'll agree.

Scrap Station was fun. So are a few others, which the names of I forget.

somebody said that terran can use siege tanks to take out the nexus/hatchery. Is this true?

And yes, it is True. Keep forgetting about that...

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:28 PM

Somebody said that terran can use siege tanks to take out the nexus/hatchery. Is this true?Probably, yes. Yet to see that happen to me though, and if you let them settle in position there, you've lost the game anyway, blown-up base or not.

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:29 PM

Somebody said that terran can use siege tanks to take out the nexus/hatchery. Is this true?

Yep. Problem is that killing their main doesn't give you that much of an advantage, by the time you have siege tanks they've already expanded twice on this map. They just expand and expand, and it takes so long to go to each base that using slow moving units like tanks just ends up hurting you in the end.

It's simply too difficult to get to the enemy base except by air, but air isn't even particularly good vs zerg. Drops are terrible because they usually have an overlord in the middle to see an early one coming.

The basic imbalance here is that zerg can expand everywhere, and terran are very bad at expanding in comparison. The best way for terran to win is an early rush, and by forcing a tech (to air or siege tanks), the zerg usually has an easy win as they can control the map.

I'm sorry if I am just "qqing" but it's kind of a joke that zerg players I destroy on maps like scrap station, blistering sands, lost temple, whatever map, I get destroyed by on this map. I've matched zerg players twice in a row, once on desert oasis once on any other map, and both matches tend to be one sided. Why should a map determine whether or not I beat a zerg? And it's not just "oh well u only like small maps" no, it's ONLY this one map.

Malkgray

03-18-2010, 07:30 PM

Ah yes, the usual... Someone tries to give feedback and they are met with the ignorance of other players.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:31 PM

The basic imbalance here is that zerg can expand everywhere, and terran are very bad at expanding in comparison.
Please. Every race can expand everywhere on any map. Terrans EVEN MORE SO, thanks to their blasted Lift-Off! Hell you can home for the safety of the islands within the first 5 minutes of the game, on this map or Lost Temple.

The best way for terran to win is an early rush, and by forcing a tech (to air or siege tanks), the zerg usually has an easy win as they can control the map.

I'm sorry if I am just "qqing" but it's kind of a joke that zerg players I destroy on maps like scrap station, blistering sands, lost temple, whatever map, I get destroyed by on this map. I've matched zerg players twice in a row, once on desert oasis once on any other map, and both matches tend to be one sided. Why should a map determine whether or not I beat a zerg? And it's not just "oh well u only like small maps" no, it's ONLY this one map.

Terrans have the advantage of flying to the Gold and Forting up there, making up for the lose time in no time, and I often do that, to awesome results, as my replay back there shows.

Picking on a MAP just sounds like baseless complaints against something your playstyle wasn't ready to accommodate yet, TBH.

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:32 PM

Terrans have the advantage of flying to the Gold and Forting up there, making up for the lose time in no time, and I often do that, to awesome results, as my replay back there shows.

As demonstrated many times, the time you lose mining usually combined with a much slower mule means that it takes at least 7-8 minutes for you to have a resource advantage combined with a tech disadvantage. It is lamost never worth it to fly to gold.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:33 PM

As demonstrated many times, the time you lose mining usually combined with a much slower mule means that it takes at least 7-8 minutes for you to have a resource advantage combined with a tech disadvantage. It is lamost never worth it to fly to gold.How about just quickly expanding with an Orbital Command on the islands.

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:34 PM

How about just quickly expanding with an Orbital Command on the islands.

Because quickly expanding means you forfeit the early game and turn it into an expansion war which the zerg are far better at. You can't hit him early if you're expanding because it takes time to saturate that expansion and make it worth building. So now you've turned the game into an expansion war, which the zerg will easily destroy you in. On any given map I will never fast expand vs a zerg because that will just give him an easy win. Zerg must be pressured into making units early so that they can't just expand out the wazoo.

Sure you can outplay zerg, but when it comes down to it, terran will always be at a slight to moderate disadvantage on this map because longer games are favorable to zerg. The distance between bases on this map is far larger than any other map.

Cygnus

03-18-2010, 07:35 PM

just voidray rush them like every other protoss duh

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:36 PM

Because quickly expanding means you forfeit the early gameI'm sure you would be able to play the rest of the match with that in mind, planning Nukes, Thor Drops, or just good ol' Battlecruisers (which when combined with Ravens seem to bury masses of Zerg alive, except maybe if they have enough Infestors ready and waiting.)

Unless your opponent plans for your Gold-&-Island trick from Build Order #1 (which apparently equates to massing Hydralisks I guess) they'll mostly be at a disadvantage. Most players won't even consider the islands while they're baited into butting heads with your Gold Fortress, which you should treat as your Expansion, not the main base, even if it was built using your first CC.

Too dependent on Cheese? Sure! For non-standard maps, you gotta use non-standard strategy. ★

Also,just voidray rush them like every other protoss duhThis. /thread

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:37 PM

I'm sure you would be able to play the rest of the match with that in mind, planning Nukes, Thor Drops, or just good ol' Battlecruisers (which when combined with Ravens seem to bury masses of Zerg alive, except maybe if they have enough Infestors ready and waiting.)

Unless your opponent plans for your Gold-&-Island trick from Build Order #1 (which apparently equates to massing Hydralisks I guess) they'll mostly be at a disadvantage. Most players won't even consider the islands while they're baited into butting heads with your Gold Fortress, which you should treat as your Expansion, not the main base, even if it was built using your first CC.

Too dependent on Cheese? Sure! For non-standard maps, you gotta use non-standard strategy. ★

Also,This. /thread

Nukes? Are you in the copper league by any chance?

Crimson

03-18-2010, 07:38 PM

desert oasis is like my best map lol. Can siege tank each base on the hill by the mineral line, and can also nuke from there without being hit by anything.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:39 PM

Nukes? Are you in the copper league by any chance?Leagues don't matter much in the Beta, especially not if Platinums complain about maps :)

Colrath

03-18-2010, 07:40 PM

Somebody said that terran can use siege tanks to take out the nexus/hatchery. Is this true?

I don't know if they can hit the main base, but if you get someone up there to scout, they can defiantly hit the eco.

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:41 PM

Leagues don't matter much in the Beta, especially not if Platinums complain about maps :)

Map, singular. Because there is a legitimate disadvantage for terran vs zerg on that map, no matter how much you want to feed players awful strategies like nuking in order to overcome it.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:42 PM

Map, singular. Because there is a legitimate disadvantage for terran vs zerg on that map, no matter how much you want to feed players awful strategies like nuking in order to overcome it.I didn't say ONLY Nukes.

They have their uses, in combination with "normal" tactics, particularly in quickly wiping some of the Zerg wazoo-expansions you seem to be worried about. A single Ghost can go about clearing a few Mineral patches while your main force distracts the swarms away.

..unless you're complaining about Nukes as well, now? Should they receive a buff? Come for free with every Command Center, you say? :P

Sludge

03-18-2010, 07:43 PM

Nukes? Are you in the copper league by any chance?

Did something happen to you overnight to make you cranky?

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:44 PM

Did something happen to you overnight to make you cranky?

No, it's just that it's relatively known even at moderate skill levels that nukes are very ineffective except for games where you just want to mess around or ffa. So I asked if he was in the copper league (he actually is, in solo, which makes sense since he suggested nukes)

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:45 PM

So I asked if he was in the copper league (he actually is, in solo, which makes sense since he suggested nukes)Nice of you to bother checking, but apparently the heat of the moment made you mistake Bronze for Copper, after demotion from Silver and Gold for winning, incidentally :)

but I'm sure my rank in a beta has proven whatever argument you'll ever make concerning anything.

So... a Nuke with every Supply Depot is it, then?

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:46 PM

Nice of you to bother checking, but apparently the heat of the moment made you mistake Bronze for Copper, after demotion from Silver and Gold for winning, incidentally :)

but I'm sure my rank has proven whatever argument you'll ever make concerning anything.

So... a Nuke with every Supply Depot is it, then?

Sorry, can't tell the difference between bronze and copper I guess. They look similar to me.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:47 PM

Sorry, can't tell the difference between bronze and copper I guess. They look similar to me.or the difference between relying on map layouts and relying on skill either I guess.

What, you want a Nuke fitted to every SCV, is that it?

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:48 PM

or the difference between relying on map layouts and relying on skill either I guess.

What, you want a Nuke fitted to every SCV, is that it?

Your strategies only work on a very low level of play. At a high level of play this map has an advantage for zerg. I've outlined why, and everything you've said to counter it with involves things that give you a disadvantage. The reason you probably think these things work is because at your level, they do.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:49 PM

Okay okay, let's play along,I'm sorry if I am just "qqing" but it's kind of a joke that zerg players I destroy on maps like scrap station, blistering sands, lost temple, whatever map, I get destroyed by on this map. You got replays of that? Same opponents playing Zerg and getting oooh DESTROYEDZ by you on other maps but PWNZ0RXZiNGQQ you on Desert Oasis?

cause, you know, like, maybe the players from our lower levels could like, you know, dood, learn something from your 1337 skillz0rx. You've outlined nothing except your own thinly-veiled dislike for a map layout not featured in the all the "pro" videos you may try to imitate, until you put forward some replays and point out the exact situations where a Zerg would've been at a disadvantage versus you on any other map.

Also, how about automatically Nuking every other race at the start of a game on Desert Oasis - Happy?

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:50 PM

Okay okay, let's play along,You got replays of that? Same opponents playing Zerg and getting oooh DESTROYEDZ by you on other maps but PWNZ0RXZiNGQQ you on Desert Oasis?

cause, you know, like, maybe the players from our lower levels could like, you know, dood, learn something from your 1337 skillz0rx. You've outlined nothing except your own thinly-veiled dislike for a map layout not featured in the all the "pro" videos you try to imitate, until you put forward some replays and point out the exact situations where a Zerg would've been at a disadvantage versus you on any other map.

Also, how about automatically Nuking every other race at the start of a game on Desert Oasis - Happy?

Statistics support zerg being better than terran on any other map to begin with, thus there would be no point for me to point out that zerg is at a disadvantage versus me on other maps. But that is a conversation for another thread. In this one I merely wish to argue that terran is at a disadvantage on this particular map. In fact, protoss is also at a disadvantage vs zerg on this map, but I play little toss so someone else will have to argue on their behalf.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:51 PM

StatisticsPLEASE.

Own up with some replays already. Fallacies won't cut it.

Even then, which statistics? Where? Are you saying you have access to the Battle.net databases with the results for every match ever played on that map?

More importantly, all you've said is "THIS MAP SUX" without offering any input on how it might be improved. Any suggestions, beyond removing it altogether and/or giving you unlimited Nukes?

Malkgray

03-18-2010, 07:52 PM

You two should start up some custom games and play each other.

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:53 PM

PLEASE.

Own up with some replays already. Fallacies won't cut it.

http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/12994

What we're definitely seeing right now is a general weakness in Terrans versus Protoss and Zerg, and this is from stats we have internally. The most interesting thing to us at this stage of the beta is less of what people think is wrong than what we can actually prove is wrong.

Our internal stats show us that Terrans are down in 1v1 versus Protoss and Zerg, and our internal stats also show us that Terran-Terran teams are also taking a hit in almost every match-up.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 07:54 PM

What we're definitely seeing right now is a general weakness in Terrans versus Protoss and Zerg, and this is from stats we have internally. The most interesting thing to us at this stage of the beta is less of what people think is wrong than what we can actually prove is wrong.

Our internal stats show us that Terrans are down in 1v1 versus Protoss and Zerg, and our internal stats also show us that Terran-Terran teams are also taking a hit in almost every match-up.
That doesn't particularly single out Desert Oasis. Note the "almost every match-up."

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:55 PM

PLEASE.

Own up with some replays already. Fallacies won't cut it.

Even then, which statistics? Where? Are you saying you have access to the Battle.net databases with the results for every match ever played on that map?

More importantly, all you've said is "THIS MAP SUX" without offering any input on how it might be improved. Any suggestions, beyond removing it altogether and/or giving you unlimited Nukes?

My suggestion is to create backdoors into the bases but make them guarded by rocks as seen in scrap station. That way it is no longer easy to fast expand while making few troops to back them up early on.

Crayon

03-18-2010, 07:56 PM

QQ

This guy totally called it.

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:57 PM

That doesn't particularly single out Desert Oasis. Note the "almost every match-up."

You claimed that I was ignoring the advantage I had versus zerg on other maps. I proved you wrong by showing that terran has no such advantage. I never said there was statistical proof out there that terran is at a disadvantage on this map, but I would likely say if they released said statistics that we would be at a disadvantage due to the reasons I've already outlined.

Doubledeuce

03-18-2010, 07:58 PM

That doesn't particularly single out Desert Oasis. Note the "almost every match-up."

why post?

you're just going to refute the replay anyway, even if david kim was playing terran, which he was on desert oasis and did lose, when I find the replay on youtube i'll show you :)

p.s. shinosai member me :)? just planetary rush

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 07:59 PM

why post?

you're just going to refute the replay anyway, even if david kim was playing terran, which he was on desert oasis and did lose, when I find the replay on youtube i'll show you :)

p.s. shinosai member me :)? just planetary rush

Ha, I remember that game. Can't believe it actually workjed.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 08:00 PM

My suggestion is to create backdoors into the bases but make them guarded by rocks as seen in scrap station. That way it is no longer easy to fast expand while making few troops to back them up early on.Okay, that's not too bad. At least you're not crying for a complete removal of this map.

but as for the fast-expansions, they're all wide open, and the naturals are much harder to defend than on any of the other maps.

So as like you, a pureblood Platinum PRO!!!1 yourself said: if you expand too quickly on this map, you forfeit some of the early game. It should more-or-less balance out, in the hands of above-average and equally-skilled players.

you're just going to refute the replay anyway, even if david kim was playing terran, which he was on desert oasis and did lose, when I find the replay on youtube i'll show you :)Are you talking about an old Battle Report? Come on!

Stuff

03-18-2010, 08:01 PM

Advantage on map doesn't guarantee success, but in the hypothetical 'all else being equal' scenario, it does.

Desert Oasis DOES benefit zerg for multiple reasons:

1) Resource placement. There's no other map that is so FE-friendly simply due to the fact that an early scout will, 99 times out of 100, miss the always-happening pre-pool Zerg FE. Watch any ZvX replays where the zerg FEs prior to dropping a pool, and the incoming scout WILL miss it, regardless of which natural they take. This is especially true of the southern starting position.

2) Isolation. Zerg mobility, once the Nydus Network is down, akin to an Archmage with Mass Teleport in RoC/TFT. Can you see it? If the answer is yes, you can go there. Terran and Protoss lack this in a big way, and on no other map does it show to be a glaring disadvantage than Desert Oasis. The map has a MASSIVE land-transit time between bases, making land-based forces for Terran and Protoss cumbersome and unwieldly. On the other hand, Zerg players can park an Overlord on the ledge next to the start location's outside Vespene stack and drop a nydus worm literally right into your opponent's resource line with almost zero warning.

Ever seen 12 banelings explode out of a Nydus worm right into 25 SCVs/Probes? it isn't pretty,and by the time you see the creep unless you have 4-5 units sitting in your resource line or spent several hunderd minerals/gas on guarding against specifically this, it's already too late.

This also allows them to have quick access to otherwise-inaccessible-by-land island expansions. Can I see it? Then I can blow it up. And unless you're standing around guarding against specifically that, by the time you see it happening it's already too late.

3) Expansion potential. Zerg lives and dies by expanding, and this map offers some of the easiest to protect expansions - by air, not by land - of any in the 1v1 pool. With Mutas, a Zerg player can quickly come to the aid of any hatchery under fire in just a few seconds. By land, barring a Nydus use, they are subject to the same penalties as Terran and Protoss - unless they use overlords for creep spreading (which I am seeing a LOT more of) for the movement increase, in which case they cut down their land army travel time significantly.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 08:02 PM

Advantage on map doesn't guarantee success, but in the hypothetical 'all else being equal' scenario, it does.

Desert Oasis DOES benefit zerg for multiple reasons:pff

1) Resource placement. There's no other map that is so FE-friendly simply due to the fact that an early scout will, 99 times out of 100, miss the always-happening pre-pool Zerg FE. Watch any ZvX replays where the zerg FEs prior to dropping a pool, and the incoming scout WILL miss it, regardless of which natural they take. This is especially true of the southern starting position.That highlights the stupidity of the scout not taking the possibility of that into account, not an inherent flaw of the map itself.

2) Isolation. Zerg mobility, once the Nydus Network is downProblem with the Nydus Network, which is clearly a WIP, not a flaw in the map, because:<blockquote><small><hr NOSHADE color = "#9E9E9E" size = "1"><small class = "white">Q u o t e:</small>
Can you see it? If the answer is yes, you can go there.[/QUOTE]Same with every map. On the other hand, Zerg players can park an Overlord on the ledge next to wherever. Learn to watch out for signs of Nydus raids.

3) Expansion potential. Terrans have it the most on any map with islands.

With Mutas, a Zerg player can quickly come to the aid of any hatchery under fire in just a few seconds.Same with any map.

Stuff

03-18-2010, 08:03 PM

pff

That highlights the stupidity of the scout not taking the possibility of that into account, not an inherent flaw of the map itself.

Calling people higher ranked than you 'stupid' typically requires more proof than "i said ur dum so ur dum lolo"

Problem with the Nydus Network, which is clearly a WIP, not a flaw in the map, because:Same with every map. wherever. Learn to watch out for signs of Nydus raids.

Way to miss the entire point. learn to watch out for it this time. Nydus offers increased mobility at a static value "if I see it I can go there." Now offer this mobility on a map that's choked, cluttered, and a long distance by land.

Terrans have it the most on any map with islands.

Except the whole vulnerable to scouting/killing while in transit part is decidedly absent with Nydus Worms. By the time the exit finishes, the damage is basically already done. Units are already flowing out, and you've already lost some if it was properly placed. If it was properly placed and he caught you mid-transit on an attack.. chances are you just lost a good chunk of if not all of your mineral/gas workers.

I've thrown a dozen Banelings through a Nydus canal I popped midfight when I was distracting him hitting a secondary expo, and literally completely shut down his main base mining ops for the rest of the game (it was a crippling blow that he had no indicator was coming because I specifically planned for him to be focused on fighting me off at his high-yield so he would not/could not respond to the Nydus drop.) He lost the high-yield expo AND every worker in his main. Simultaneously. And it cost me nothing more than a dozen banelings and took nothing more than the forethought to distract him by squeezing somewhere I knew he'd feel (high-yield expo).

Same with any map.

Other maps aren't as tightly packed as Desert Oasis. From center-top or center-bottom, by air every expansion on the map is literally 5 seconds or less away. This allows zerg - who thrive or starve based on their ability to acquire and defend expansions at an almost breakneck pace - to more easily protect themselves from being deprived of a resource advantage.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 08:04 PM

Calling people higher ranked than you 'stupid' typically requires more proof than "i said ur dum so ur dum lolo"Your personal standing in comparison to me has no bearing upon the weight and validity of our arguments. Welcome to Twenty Ten.

Would you turn tail and blindly worship everything I say if I beat you in some game?

Nydus offers increased mobility at a static value "if I see it I can go there." Now offer this mobility on a map that's choked, cluttered, and a long distance by land.

Except the whole vulnerable to scouting/killing while in transit part is decidedly absent with Nydus Worms.So basically any map larger than Blood Bath or Blistering Sands = Terran QQ Zerg GG.

Other maps aren't as tightly packed as Desert Oasis. From center-top or center-bottom, by air every expansion on the map is literally 5 seconds or less away.Metalopolis.

Face it people, you're one-trick-ponies, Platinum or not, forcibly making up flaws in Desert Oasis because you don't get an easily-defendable natural-expansion as in the other maps. Learn to adapt.

Stuff

03-18-2010, 08:05 PM

Your personal standing in comparison to me has no bearing upon the weight and validity of our arguments. Welcome to Twenty Ten.

Would you turn tail and blindly worship everything I say if I beat you in some game?

Not talking about me there, cochise. Talking about pretty much every ZvX platinum league replay/Vod I've ever watched. They're the ones you're calling stupid.

So basically any map larger than Blood Bath or Blistering Sands = Terran QQ Zerg GG.

Metalopolis.

Wrang, but nice try. Metal has a different layout, the expansions are spread further out, and starting point base layout offers greater accessibility by land(you don't have to circle around to the side furthest from you to access a main).

Face it people, you're one-trick-ponies, Platinum or not, forcibly making up flaws in Desert Oasis because you don't get an easily-defendable natural-expansion as in the other maps. Learn to adapt.

These aren't 'forcibly made up'.. they're pretty obvious to discern when you take a terrain layout and apply game mechanics to it.

Imagine a map on which EVERY single resource node was placed on highground with a narrow ramp choke. Would be a little easier for terrans to defend against ground due to walloffs + siege tanks, don't you think?

Or how about start locations littered with steam vents that block LoS. Would make Protoss Proxy Pylon Pushing (4 Ps there and I couldn't think of a better way to say it) a main significantly easier to do and harder to defend against wouldn't you agree?

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 08:06 PM

wow I just won a PvT on Desert Oasis just now. Expect a similar thread against Protoss on this map any minute now <3

Stuff

03-18-2010, 08:07 PM

wow I just won a PvT on Desert Oasis just now. Expect a similar thread against Protoss on this map any minute now <3

Obvious strawman is obvious.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 08:08 PM

^^
In any case, we can all somewhat agree that the main bases on this map need 2 entry points each, one blocked with debris. ..or maybe not: 2 open ramps into a base would be crazy for most people, but could really make this map much more fun, and make those Xel'naga towers, especially the central, an absolute necessity.

Problem solved.

Wood

03-18-2010, 08:09 PM

Well personally, for desert oasis and scrap station, I just get void rays with good base defense (and fast too) so the opponent can't scout me well. Either that or hide Stargates at the back of your base. I'm speaking from a bronze level though, although the matchmaking can be random anyway.

You are so close by air to your opponent on these maps, it is worth it to fly over and take out his command center or whatever, in a couple seconds. Sure a good player will stop you and perhaps already be countering, but he's now scared and you can build an expo and then use the voids to wipe out his expos etc... if he's massing air well then the game becomes a toss up of economy vs economy.

P.S. mutalisks are ridiculous though.

Chung

03-18-2010, 08:10 PM

I started out at gold and in my experience, mid-level gold game play is completely different from platinum game play. I can imagine what the gap between bronze and platinum would be. I think that explains the disconnect we see between players in this thread.

Having played many TvZ on this map against platinum Zerg, I'm inclined to agree with the OP. Strategies described by some of the players posting in this thread may work well in their league but platinum players play differently. That is not to say the opinions of those dissenting are invalid but I think what the OP is saying is at least reasonable.

In my opinion, Zerg IS dominant on Desert Oasis in both ZvP and ZvT, because their economy-military tradeoff is larger than other races, and because they are more mobile. However, some maps favor certain races in certain matchups. That's a fact of StarCraft. That's the price we pay for map diversity and the diversity of game play. So really, the only question is HOW MUCH a map should be able to favor a race IMO. I think it's up to Blizzard to answer that when the numbers come in.

I will say that, as a firm advocate of nukes and *!!%ing around in general, nukes do NOT work at platinum level at all. It is a guaranteed loss of 200 minerals and 300 gas literally every time you deploy one anywhere on the map. It is only good for *!!%ing around.

Scion

03-18-2010, 08:11 PM

Zerg has advantage in Desert Oasis in PvZ as well, Protoss can't really move out against any zerg that opts for early mutas. Your ground force will take 9 years to reach his base while his muta can back stab my main freely if I move out. I try building phoenixs early and zerg will simply out macro and expand because it is so easy for zerg to backstab or prepare for any kind of timing push on this map.

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 08:12 PM

y'all need to stop falling back on the Rank crutch for everything, especially in a beta system and especially if you mostly play with just 1 race.

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23425532006

Nezdragon

03-18-2010, 08:13 PM

As a budding Zerg player, thanks for all the tips and tactics. I'll be sure to use them next time this map comes up.

(otherwise I will probably end up having all my queens with full energy again... and again... and again...)

Scion

03-18-2010, 08:14 PM

y'all need to stop falling back on the Rank clutch for everything, especially in a beta system and especially if you mostly play with just 1 race.

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23425532006

You're right, its the beta. So we're giving feedback to Blizzard.

Chung

03-18-2010, 08:15 PM

y'all need to stop falling back on the Rank clutch for everything, especially in a beta system and especially if you mostly play with just 1 race.

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23425532006

Playing your best and trying to be competitive provides the most useful feedback Blizzard can get. Now run along you clueless bronze player you. I kid, I kid. :)

Disastorm

03-18-2010, 08:16 PM

I dunno if the topic statement is true, but even if it is, theres no problem with it. In RTS, most maps are favored for one race or another. Its not like fighting games where everyone plays on final destination all the time because its balanced. Instead, starcraft tournaments will usually have a variety of maps that when combined will balance out, but each one may not individually be balanced. This is similar also to Counterstrike where some maps favor T or Ct, but the teams alternate and get to play as both teams to balance it out.

Shinosai

03-18-2010, 08:17 PM

Joneleth

03-18-2010, 08:18 PM

crappy maps with major imbalancesQQ.

You only play one race, Terran, and then flaunt Rank in a Beta, and you can't handle a single map that's slightly out of the ordinary.

I don't know about sc1 since I'm not familiar with the pro sceneThus, ITT: Warcrafter QQ.

Blasius

03-18-2010, 08:19 PM

Desert Oasis is just a terrible map in general, it should be removed from the map pool.

Endrick

03-18-2010, 08:20 PM

Yep. Problem is that killing their main doesn't give you that much of an advantage, by the time you have siege tanks they've already expanded twice on this map. They just expand and expand, and it takes so long to go to each base that using slow moving units like tanks just ends up hurting you in the end.

It's simply too difficult to get to the enemy base except by air, but air isn't even particularly good vs zerg. Drops are terrible because they usually have an overlord in the middle to see an early one coming.

The basic imbalance here is that zerg can expand everywhere, and terran are very bad at expanding in comparison. The best way for terran to win is an early rush, and by forcing a tech (to air or siege tanks), the zerg usually has an easy win as they can control the map.

I'm sorry if I am just "qqing" but it's kind of a joke that zerg players I destroy on maps like scrap station, blistering sands, lost temple, whatever map, I get destroyed by on this map. I've matched zerg players twice in a row, once on desert oasis once on any other map, and both matches tend to be one sided. Why should a map determine whether or not I beat a zerg? And it's not just "oh well u only like small maps" no, it's ONLY this one map.

Yep, exactly.

Also don't forget to add far-spawn metalopolis to this. It's only 1 of 3 chance when you get metalopolis, but vs zerg if you get far-spawn on metalopolis, terran is at a big disadvantage.

The problem with this is that this is a completely random factor.
The outcome of a competitive tournament / league style RTS game is not supposed to be random at all - it's supposed to be based entirely on the skill of the two players.

Unsuspected

03-18-2010, 08:21 PM

I bet if you looked at statistics they would have a high win percentage on this broken map.

Shinosai, you could have had a very good thread if your first post just explained your reasoning as oppose to just stating it like a fact. If you would have done the former, it would have been a compelling argument as oppose to a QQ.

Balsatouchin

03-18-2010, 08:22 PM

Sure you can outplay zerg, but when it comes down to it, terran will always be at a slight to moderate disadvantage on this map because longer games are favorable to zerg.

Can you justify this? I'm pretty new and in bronze league, but my experience is that Z get destroyed late game. Terrans are amazing at turtling, and if I cant successfully expo harass, then its GG--especially if BC's get on the board. Our tier three is by far the worst as it can only attack ground. Sure Brood lords and Ultras pwn, but the problem is everybody knows this. Lots of people like to QQ about mutas, but really their greatest assest is mobility. Phoenix destroy muta and so do mass viking, and if the T manages to eek it to BC's, I'm finished. Even WITH corruptors... anyway, you look pretty skilled so maybe you can shoot down some of my arguments.

engineer

03-18-2010, 08:23 PM

I still think that any problems like this should be addressed through racial balance during the beta. If terran need a form of increased mobility in order to compete with zerg on Desert Oasis, I'd rather Blizz gave them such a feature than simply removing the map. After all, it's beta, and the ability could always be reverted if it didn't work well.

In other words, I'd rather play a game that was balanced such that Desert Oasis was as fair as Blistering Sands, instead of a game where all maps need to be cut from the same basic form in order to be fair. Map balancing can always be done after beta, and so it should be a last resort.

Edit: fixed a typo.

Endrick

03-18-2010, 08:24 PM

Wow Joneleth.invictus, you should really be playing more and posting less until you learn a little bit about this game.

You apparently don't even understand yet that zerg outmacros terran and terran depends on timing attacks to compete with zerg. You also don't understand basic differences in mobility between the races.

Hush and go play / learn first.

Wingless

03-18-2010, 08:25 PM

The land distance is annoying for all races and those chokes directly north-south of the expansions seem to help Terran in my experience. Especially since siege tanks in the main can hit it. At least when I am pushing north they can I cant remember if its perfectly mirrored.

Also the distance between the main and expansions make early expansions hard against an aggressive Terran who can harass me with hellions and reapers. At least until I get defense up and a nydas network.

In the end this map is worth having because of all the thinking it puts people through. The fact that it was different enough to generate all the QQ threads it has had made this map worthwhile. I know I did not like it right off but Ive adapted and to be honest the more I see people complaining the better job I think they did with it.

Also you cant say I only have a problem with this one map. Its like 1 of 8 so that is over 12% of the maps you just cant deal with. In fact its about the only one they attempted to stray from the boring vanilla cookie cutter techniques on.

Endrick

03-18-2010, 08:26 PM

to be honest the more I see people complaining the better job I think they did with it

Golden quote :) rofl

Tensor

03-18-2010, 08:27 PM

Haha, I just played on this map vs a zerg player. I managed to get siege tanks + MMM and destroyed his main and everything in it. The next portion of the game involved him flying his mutalisks around at will while expanding freely and owning all my bases. Valkyries + marines are crap against mutalisks and I spent the remainder of the game building a bunch of turrets at each base fruitlessly prolonging the inevitable.

Wingless

03-18-2010, 08:28 PM

Mass marines will dominate mass mutas if you can make them come to the marines. Valkeries cant do much unless your talking even numbers or close to it.

I know what you saying though I played a game on desert oasis two days ago where I lost my main but I had the islands so I said screw it and built a spire on the islands and used all my money to mass mutas for a win. Took out the other players ability to produce anti air and went worker hunting. Won that game.

Chung

03-18-2010, 08:29 PM

Shinosai, you could have had a very good thread if your first post just explained your reasoning as oppose to just stating it like a fact. If you would have done the former, it would have been a compelling argument as oppose to a QQ.

I think the OP's only mistake was not realizing how clueless some players are. :)

Namhcir

03-18-2010, 08:30 PM

blizzard already said they are redesigning some of the maps because terran suck on them... I'm pretty sure this is one of those maps getting redesigned, hopefully scrap station too =x least mobile army (without medivacs because just 2 mutas takes away that capability) on big/winding maps = bad

And they said terran was doing the worsdt right now in high level of play still, and that they were redesigning some of the maps for terran...

Also ghost will likely get nerfed I'm hearing, but I'm also hearing Terran Mech is being reworked, so that is a good thing overall.. i dunno how good the source is for the ghost nerf, but it sounds reasonable and needed to me