This game ISNT READY

[Stompey]

Is it just me or does this game need to be fixed
Ive fished from platinum rank 6-13 in my division since this beta has started... and it just feels funny

PvP is a joke in high level play, 3 gate teleport pylon, luckcraft at best, not fun at all.

PvZ is frustrating because it feels like you have to do a timing push to either take down their FE, which alwasy comes, or risk getting owned by mass muta, which even archons dont counter anymore? Basically forced to either rush or play catch up with pheonix's...

PvT banshees are stupidly op, and should be countered by stalkers.. marauders and marines rip apart zealots and stalkers... you are forced to get colossus every ducking game, or storm, which ends up being luckcrafted who can cast the emp or the storm first??

Every game feels like mass mass mass rush rush rush attack move GG


Many aspects of this game need a revamp if it is supposed to be 1/2 as fun as BW was...

-Stalkers need a complete revamp as right now they dont counter anything, except maybe roaches, and frankly feel lame and not fun
-Zealots should be able to be danced ie hit move
-Roaches are a stupidly boring unit, they are just crypt fiends, which were not fun, make em tanks or something, tanking for hydras
-Mutas should not be auto GG after about 10 are out, make at least archons counter them
-Terran is forced into MMM vs toss
-Collosus is not optional, it is required for every game
-this teleport pylon crap is a good idea, but makes games like 8 minutes long in many cases

But most of all.... it feels like 75% of games are decided by one base play. One base play gets old fast. What makes brood war so fun is that you could split the map in half many games and each of you would be on 5 bases, waiting for the other players macro to break or for one harass to go through unnoticed and punish the other player.

ONE BASE RUSHCRAFT WILL NOT LAST 10 YEARS
Please redo like 25% of this game
75% of it is amazing, fun, and well designed.. rushing domination, 8 minute games, attack move gameplay, low econ gaming is the 25% that needs to be redone

PLEASE DO NOT LAUNCH THIS GAME LIKE THIS
It will not last

I will be posting a lot of negative feedback as i see it, as i couldnt stand to see this game turn out sucking.

[Karabias]

Ummmm, it's a beta? Why do you think they have us testing it?

[Horangii]

beta testing means the game is incomplete and they are testing it to make changes. you didn't buy this game, you were invited as a tester...A TESTER so be constructive

[Stompey]

I have tested 250 games at high level platinum play..and still havent seen an ultralisk used once? if i ever get to 3 bases its only because ive already ripped apart the other guys base and won....

Low Economy games are getting boring fast... buff defending rushes
This needs to be addressed.
Who agrees?

[Irenicus]

beta testing means the game is incomplete and they are testing it to make changes. you didn't buy this game, you were invited as a tester...A TESTER so be constructive


OP post is constructive

[Jrange]

I have tested 250 games at high level platinum play..and still havent seen an ultralisk used once? if i ever get to 3 bases its only because ive already ripped apart the other guys base and won....

Low Economy games are getting boring fast... buff defending rushes
This needs to be addressed.
Who agrees?

Yeah, it's not ready... thus the purpose of a beta.

I agree that low economy game are boring, but I guess you just have to wait until everyone is as good as you so they can keep up.

Also, I just played 2 games against Zerg and they both used Ultralisks... One guy beat me, the other didn't.

[Stompey]

I am not trying to be negative, just trying to let people know that there are serious flaws in the mechics and flow of the early game atm

Rushing should not dominate as much as it does right now...

[Anon]

I agree with stalkers

the warp trick is very neat,and nice for Harassing if you can pull it off...but otherwise they always feel weak and lackluster. I feel it to be in much better interest to get stalkers later and just work my way to immortals,because even if theres air the stalkers tend to go down fast. Meanwhile you can make immortals very early on as well which decimate ground armies and can sometimes bypass air teching (but not all the time).

Stalkers for me feel like an emergency unit when i need AA fast,and even then they don't do that job very well.Even the only time a toss has tried to harass me with them they didn't do much damage.

I am not trying to be negative, just trying to let people know that there are serious flaws in the mechics and flow of the early game atm

Rushing should not dominate as much as it does right now...

Define rushing

In SC1 it was lings at start of game tearing your workers.

Here the workers just tear the lings a new one.

I've yet to die to a rush like i did in Sc1.

[Jrange]

I am not trying to be negative, just trying to let people know that there are serious flaws in the mechics and flow of the early game atm

Rushing should not dominate as much as it does right now...


It's exactly how SC1 started. It takes a while for various strategies to form and become well known enough to need countering. I think winning or losing a match in the first 5 mins is pretty retarded, but if someone can't hold off the rush, maybe they wouldn't have put on a good fight anyway. Also, you can ask your opponent for no rush, but sometimes they lie. I never have asked but someone commented on it before. I don't see the joy in beating anyone like that, but some people care about winning more than anything else... like fun.

[Soli]

To the first couple replies: most of his post IS a list of specific suggestions. He's not just QQing. This is exactly what beta testers are supposed to do - play the game a lot and then give specific feedback about changes that would make the game better. That's what the OP did.

I don't agree with everything you said - how can Colossi be required every game for Toss if pylon warping is so dominant that "most" games end in 8 minutes? Either I'm really slow rushing Colossi or that doesn't add up :P In general, though, you raise many good points.

[Dreuel]

beta testing means the game is incomplete and they are testing it to make changes. you didn't buy this game, you were invited as a tester...A TESTER so be constructive

I don't know whether I agree with every comment, but I think his comments are on topic and constructive. Unconstructive would be saying that the game isn't ready and not explaining what he'd like to see different.

[Anon]

It's exactly how SC1 started. It takes a while for various strategies to form and become well known enough to need countering. I think winning or losing a match in the first 5 mins is pretty retarded, but if someone can't hold off the rush, maybe they wouldn't have put on a good fight anyway. Also, you can ask your opponent for no rush, but sometimes they lie. I never have asked but someone commented on it before. I don't see the joy in beating anyone like that, but some people care about winning more than anything else... like fun.

The way i see it,what happens happens.

Play to win,I'll attack you the moment i have an army i have faith in,but i'll be teching to the top every step of the way.

Sadly,this stratagy has usually not gotten my tech higher then Collosi.

EDIT:also,i was REALLY surprised when i heard Archons don't counter Mutas,i seriously expect this to be fixed in a later beta patch. For such a high tech splash unit,you'd think they'd beat the most bunched up units in the game.

[Stompey]

I played 15 terrans today, most top 20 platinum players

7 of them 2 port banshee rushed
7 of them marauder marine rushed
1 sat in his base and teched and massed, what a wierdo

I played 5 protoss today
all 5 just massed zeals
1 proxied all his gates outside my base
4 did pylon teleport rushes into the mineral line

For lower level players, this strategy is pretty unbeatable:
send ur 9 probe into their base, rush out ur gateway and core, build 2 zealots and sit them on his ramp, while dancing ur 9 probe thats in his base the entire time, research teleport asap, now build a pylon in his mineral line while ur teleporter is upgrading, and now make him choose between killing ur proxy pylon, or losing the pylon on his gateway at the front of his base, since he will have 2-3 zeals at this point max, and will not be able to protect his ledge and also kill the proxy pylon at the same time, remember to have about 5 gates finished and mass them continuisly, CONGRATS, ur now Smuft and rank 1 pvp player! all in 7 minutes or less

[Laeelin]

I am not trying to be negative, just trying to let people know that there are serious flaws in the mechics and flow of the early game atm

Rushing should not dominate as much as it does right now...


I think the problem is that saying "This game isn't ready" is like saying "grass is green" everyone knows it isn't ready. It's not supposed to be ready. So your going to get lots of replies saying "We know it isn't ready"

Your subject is going to cause a lot of critical replies, and cause flaming because it implies that the game should be ready.

That said - pointing out problems with suggested fixes like you did is exactly what they want, and what we all should be doing.

Edit: /bah --- i'm way to slow.

[Nerva]

Agreed

In fact, who can actually say that any of the tier 1.5 units are GREAT units that make this game what it is?

Stalkers - NO
Roaches - NO
Marauders - NO (how does a tier 1.5 unit counter so many units?)

this! marauders shred too many things right now. anyone try a stimmed marauder drop? it's too good. roach seems to be the new hydra right now. it's bread and butter of zerg. stalkers are just weird imho. overall kinda weak. maybe im missing something.

[Minos]

I have tested 250 games at high level platinum play..and still havent seen an ultralisk used once? if i ever get to 3 bases its only because ive already ripped apart the other guys base and won....

Low Economy games are getting boring fast... buff defending rushes
This needs to be addressed.
Who agrees?

I couldn't agree more. I hate it that i have to devote every single click and resource to defending early rushes if i want any chance to survive one and have an interesting game.

[Dirkydu]

Your problem is you came out strong with an overly sensational title stating something we already know, but in a manner more kin to "ZOMG sky is falling."

Everything you listed are issues of balance, which is exactly what we're about to spend the next 4 months refining.

Agreed

In fact, who can actually say that any of the tier 1.5 units are GREAT units that make this game what it is?

Stalkers - NO
Roaches - NO
Marauders - NO (how does a tier 1.5 unit counter so many units?)

Name a SC1 unit that "made the game what it is." I personally like both Marauders and Roaches - they're both niche units that are countered by a variety of different methods. I do completely agree with complaints against stalkers. They are a costly unit with sub par damage that don't seem to be especially good against anything. Tweaking is definitely warranted, imo.

[Davekap]

I have tested 250 games at high level platinum play..and still havent seen an ultralisk used once? if i ever get to 3 bases its only because ive already ripped apart the other guys base and won....

Low Economy games are getting boring fast... buff defending rushes
This needs to be addressed.
Who agrees?
Dude I'm a lowly bronze and even I agree with this.

[Redscare]

I used ultras once in 1v1 and it was when we were all pretty new to the game. It worked, but I think this was just because I was pumping 5 bases to his 2.

Ultras however work really well if complemented right in 2v2. They make good work of ground based anti-air so they are pretty good with support of base flatteners like carriers or BCs or maybe Corrupter/Broodlords. In 1v1 however yeah they need some work since every other end-game big unit can kick their asses (Broodlords, BCs, Carriers)

I also agree that this game does need to make expanding a bigger part of the game, but I don't think the 8 minute game thing is too far off. This early in the game that is half decent and at the pro level SC1 games on average seem to be about 15 minutes (at least if it isn't ZvZ).

I think a lot of stuff people think of as issues are just the signs of a very immature meta-game and will improve with time. For example a lot of the hard counter issues people had int he first week or so have started to clear up with micro development. but then again I'm just a Bronze noob so what do I know.

[Stompey]

NAME A SC UNIT THAT DEFINES SC:

Vulture, Medics, LURKER LURKER LURKER, Corsair all were staple units, replaced by boring lackluster roaches marauders and stalkers

Glad to see goliaths gone tho

[Mtran]

They really want to speed up the games. Hence more starting workers.

In SC, not much really goes on the first few minutes of a game other than scouting. In SC2, one their goals is to be the ultimate RTS in esports. They want to make the games more action packed so they're more intense and fun to watch.

I personally don't mind.

[Wyrd]

NAME A SC UNIT THAT DEFINES SC:

Vulture, Medics, LURKER LURKER LURKER, Corsair all were staple units, replaced by boring lackluster roaches marauders and stalkers

Glad to see goliaths gone tho

Pretty sure hellions, medivacs and phoenixes replaces vultures, medics and corsairs. Though I see the similarity between roaches and lurkers.

[Pewpewlazors]

I have tested 250 games at high level platinum play..and still havent seen an ultralisk used once? if i ever get to 3 bases its only because ive already ripped apart the other guys base and won....

Low Economy games are getting boring fast... buff defending rushes
This needs to be addressed.
Who agrees?


lol....

well 250 games is a lie

and buff defending rushes? its not hard to defend them, L2P

[Xaviar]

Is it just me or does this game need to be fixed
Ive fished from platinum rank 6-13 in my division since this beta has started... and it just feels funny

PvP is a joke in high level play, 3 gate teleport pylon, luckcraft at best, not fun at all.

PvZ is frustrating because it feels like you have to do a timing push to either take down their FE, which alwasy comes, or risk getting owned by mass muta, which even archons dont counter anymore? Basically forced to either rush or play catch up with pheonix's...

PvT banshees are stupidly op, and should be countered by stalkers.. marauders and marines rip apart zealots and stalkers... you are forced to get colossus every ducking game, or storm, which ends up being luckcrafted who can cast the emp or the storm first??

Every game feels like mass mass mass rush rush rush attack move GG


Many aspects of this game need a revamp if it is supposed to be 1/2 as fun as BW was...

-Stalkers need a complete revamp as right now they dont counter anything, except maybe roaches, and frankly feel lame and not fun
-Zealots should be able to be danced ie hit move
-Roaches are a stupidly boring unit, they are just crypt fiends, which were not fun, make em tanks or something, tanking for hydras
-Mutas should not be auto GG after about 10 are out, make at least archons counter them
-Terran is forced into MMM vs toss
-Collosus is not optional, it is required for every game
-this teleport pylon crap is a good idea, but makes games like 8 minutes long in many cases

But most of all.... it feels like 75% of games are decided by one base play. One base play gets old fast. What makes brood war so fun is that you could split the map in half many games and each of you would be on 5 bases, waiting for the other players macro to break or for one harass to go through unnoticed and punish the other player.

ONE BASE RUSHCRAFT WILL NOT LAST 10 YEARS
Please redo like 25% of this game
75% of it is amazing, fun, and well designed.. rushing domination, 8 minute games, attack move gameplay, low econ gaming is the 25% that needs to be redone

PLEASE DO NOT LAUNCH THIS GAME LIKE THIS
It will not last

I will be posting a lot of negative feedback as i see it, as i couldnt stand to see this game turn out sucking.

+1

[kalarm]

Stopped reading when you said roaches were boring.

If the game was ready, it would be released, not in beta :)

[Rizaun]

I don't see where it's stated that the game was ready...

[Zaq]

Roaches are probably one of the most boring units in the game.... they're attack-move idiot proof.

[Essentia]

+1 to OP

[Triangleman]

Pretty sure hellions, medivacs and phoenixes replaces vultures, medics and corsairs. Though I see the similarity between roaches and lurkers.

if hellions and phoenixes are supposed to replace vultures and corsairs as iconic units, then sc2's in trouble.


and to everyone else, god damn. the OP is criticizing a very, very huge flaw in the game. believe or not, but games don't change that dramatically from beta to release. yes, there may be balance changes. but this is a fundamental flaw in sc2's current gameplay.

blizzard will have to change a lot if they plan on bringing back what the OP is talking about. It's a big problem, so why brush it off while saying "O HEY IT"S BETA THEY'LL FIX ITLOL." That's what you say to people who complain about minor unimportant things, not giant things like the OP is talking about.

the greatness of SC was caused by accident combined with a very strong, persistent community with ongoing support from blizzard. SC2 will not be an instant classic when it's released, and will likely need to undergo a !!!%load of changes in order to reach the level SC is currently at.

I just hope blizzard realizes that their product will be far from perfect at release, and that they won't be afraid to make dramatic changes to it in the future. At least we'll have the galaxy editor in the mean time.

[Balanced]

if the koreans believe sumthing is not balanced only then will it be fixed...

[Cordyceps]

-Stalkers need a complete revamp as right now they dont counter anything, except maybe roaches, and frankly feel lame and not fun
-Zealots should be able to be danced ie hit move
-Roaches are a stupidly boring unit, they are just crypt fiends, which were not fun, make em tanks or something, tanking for hydras
-Mutas should not be auto GG after about 10 are out, make at least archons counter them
-Terran is forced into MMM vs toss
-Collosus is not optional, it is required for every game
-this teleport pylon crap is a good idea, but makes games like 8 minutes long in many cases

But most of all.... it feels like 75% of games are decided by one base play. One base play gets old fast. What makes brood war so fun is that you could split the map in half many games and each of you would be on 5 bases, waiting for the other players macro to break or for one harass to go through unnoticed and punish the other player.

ONE BASE RUSHCRAFT WILL NOT LAST 10 YEARS
Please redo like 25% of this game
75% of it is amazing, fun, and well designed.. rushing domination, 8 minute games, attack move gameplay, low econ gaming is the 25% that needs to be redone

FWIW (probably not much) I agree. Games are just over too quickly for it to remain interesting for very long; rushing was boring in SC1, too, and it seems like it's all that's ever really likely to happen in SC2 under the current design philosophy.

As for specific suggestions, it seems like stronger defensive capabilities in general would be a step in the right direction. Tougher buildings, especially defensive buildings (turrets, colonies, cannons) would help (notable exceptions: Nydus Canals and Planetary Fortresses seem like they're in about the right place, for what they do). Harder-hitting GtA units (Goliaths T_T) would be nice; GtA is interesting because it holds the peculiar position of being a purely defensive form of offense, with the rare exception against terrans who like to fly their buildings. For that matter, harder-hitting pure AtA (Corrupters etc) would be nice, too, for similar reasons. AtG and GtG feel like they're pretty ok for most units (although, again, most buildings should be sturdier, including the defensive ones), but there's a serious shortage of stopping power against air forces (M&M notwithstanding, and I think that may be one of the reasons for its broad success/appeal). Air forces should be powerful because they have the mobility advantage, not because there's inadequate options for countering them.

[Tanus]

NAME A SC UNIT THAT DEFINES SC:

Vulture, Medics, LURKER LURKER LURKER, Corsair all were staple units, replaced by boring lackluster roaches marauders and stalkers

Glad to see goliaths gone tho

Note that 3 of those 4 'defining' units didn't appear until the expansion, let alone sc1 beta.

[Omniance]

Note that 3 of those 4 'defining' units didn't appear until the expansion, let alone sc1 beta.

This is a bit of a moot point considering that Brood War was released in the same year as SC. So regardless of if they weren't in the original game or not, they defined the game and their respective race's strategies.

[Gustauveviii]

In regards to rushing, I would actually like it if people rushed. If you can't defend against a simple tactic, you either are unskilled in defeating a very basic strategy, or a horrible chain of events prevented you from doing things correctly. If you can defend against one, good for you. You just made him lose his soldiers without much loss from you own (provided that most of his dies and only a fraction of yours did also). I think this helps weed out the weak players from the good players in a fast game. I would just like to assume if you're facing good players, the game would indefinitely last longer, assuming that you yourself are good also.

[Wiz]

I have tested 250 games at high level platinum play..and still havent seen an ultralisk used once? if i ever get to 3 bases its only because ive already ripped apart the other guys base and won....

Low Economy games are getting boring fast... buff defending rushes
This needs to be addressed.
Who agrees?

i tried the ultralisk yesterday just to see how they are. they were just killed with the stalkers attack and move, so aren't really worth getting from my experience.

[Banno]

+1 OP

Yes it's early beta.. but the games seem so to be over to quick, as many said 1 Base rushes gets old fast

Over 100 games played, won over 50% and i'd say about 10 of them were over 15mins , just, and I got a 2nd base.

[Stompey]

lol....

well 250 games is a lie

and buff defending rushes? its not hard to defend them, L2P

No lie, check division 2 platinum, most players have 300+ games in the top 10, some 400

[Kancho]

To add to the OP, I would say that Terran is forced into MMM vs. zerg as well.

[Stompey]

if hellions and phoenixes are supposed to replace vultures and corsairs as iconic units, then sc2's in trouble.


and to everyone else, god damn. the OP is criticizing a very, very huge flaw in the game. believe or not, but games don't change that dramatically from beta to release. yes, there may be balance changes. but this is a fundamental flaw in sc2's current gameplay.

blizzard will have to change a lot if they plan on bringing back what the OP is talking about. It's a big problem, so why brush it off while saying "O HEY IT"S BETA THEY'LL FIX ITLOL." That's what you say to people who complain about minor unimportant things, not giant things like the OP is talking about.

the greatness of SC was caused by accident combined with a very strong, persistent community with ongoing support from blizzard. SC2 will not be an instant classic when it's released, and will likely need to undergo a !!!%load of changes in order to reach the level SC is currently at.

I just hope blizzard realizes that their product will be far from perfect at release, and that they won't be afraid to make dramatic changes to it in the future. At least we'll have the galaxy editor in the mean time.



good calll!
This product isnt perfect, and many are saying an end of may release.... this is just way too early considering the current lack of fun in high tier play....blizzard needs to do a survey of people who have played 300 games and ask them when they have fun and when they have no fun

FUN: when i have a few bases and macro like crazy and try to flank and harass my enemies bases while continuing to try and stay one base up on my opponent

NOT FUN: make 3 rax, a pylon gateway, and or mass hydralisks and roaches, and attack move my way into a win, all off of one base

[Stompey]

It has been quoted by high profile players, Idra for example, that the way this game is right now it CANNOT be an esport

The difference between an average high level player and a top tier high level player is so marginal right now...

After 50 games played I faced david kim... I should NEVER beat him with so little experience in the game... Although I just cheesed him and won... Rushes are luckbased, and dont bring out the true skill of a player.

How can anyone want to continue to play and train in a game where no matter how much you practise, you will still lose to a 3 rax marine rush half the time, just because there is no real way to defend it without guessing your opponent will do it

[Fors]

I don't see where it's stated that the game was ready...

If the game was ready, it would be released, not in beta :)

There are quite a few people that believe the game is ready to go NOW. I for one wouldn't mind if the game was released now, but only because I'm not a platinum player so I wouldn't have as much trouble with the balancing as the OP might.

Anyways, I think that he was saying that the game isn't ready in response to those people in general, not so much towards Blizzard and such.

[Azile]

How can anyone want to continue to play and train in a game where no matter how much you practise, you will still lose to a 3 rax marine rush half the time, just because there is no real way to defend it without guessing your opponent will do it

I hear scouting is optional.

People need to quit comparing SC2 to SC1. This is a new game, this is not a 12 year old game that grew into something entirely different than what it was originally intended to be. Starcraft 1 was a fluke and comparing a beta to a 12 year old 'e-sport' game is laughable.

Liquid`Drone summed it up pretty well in my opinion here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114301

Take a deep breath and step back, you're here to test the game not to write a thesis on it. Better yet maybe go outside or just don't play for a day, considering you claim to have 250+ games played in two weeks assuming you got into beta on day one.

[Stompey]

I love starcraft and want it to last for ten more years...

LONG LIVE BASE BUILDING

DIE DIE DIE ONE BASE MASSING

[Kevin]

What are you guys talking about... I NEVER get bored with a game and being rushed and surviving is part of being good and part of the fun for me. Personally I like to rush, why? Because the longer a game goes the more imbalanced the game gets. Yes this is Beta so we are testing, that's fine. Plenty of games go long due to failed rushes.

Early game options I feel are more abundant than in SC1, If not more abundant SC2 is at least on par with SC1 in terms of units available to a player within the first 3 - 4 mins of game-play.

For those moaning about games not lasting long due to rushes... WTF think happened in SC1? SC1 was all about who rushed properly unless you were in a NR20 game. I LOVE the fact money maps are gone, just as I love what blizzard is doing with the game. Are there some units underpowered and OP? Yes, but that is what this Beta is for.

[Proletaria]

Stalker buffz pls.

But seriously, i'd be shocked if they didn't turn a lot of nobs over the next few months of beta. After all the delays to this game you have to know they want it to be as good as the original.

I'm not sure the whole "game is too rush," is absolute. I know some maps can be brutally fast-paced in the early game, but others leave plenty of room to scout and defend in enough time. There are a good deal of gimmicks with the new cliff-hopping, warping, and burrowed movement units in the game, but they are new and it should be expected they'll be harder aspects to balance.

Anyhow, I like a lot of the suggestions.

[Namhcir]

Is it just me or does this game need to be fixed
Ive fished from platinum rank 6-13 in my division since this beta has started... and it just feels funny

PvP is a joke in high level play, 3 gate teleport pylon, luckcraft at best, not fun at all.

PvZ is frustrating because it feels like you have to do a timing push to either take down their FE, which alwasy comes, or risk getting owned by mass muta, which even archons dont counter anymore? Basically forced to either rush or play catch up with pheonix's...

PvT banshees are stupidly op, and should be countered by stalkers.. marauders and marines rip apart zealots and stalkers... you are forced to get colossus every ducking game, or storm, which ends up being luckcrafted who can cast the emp or the storm first??

Every game feels like mass mass mass rush rush rush attack move GG


Many aspects of this game need a revamp if it is supposed to be 1/2 as fun as BW was...

-Stalkers need a complete revamp as right now they dont counter anything, except maybe roaches, and frankly feel lame and not fun
-Zealots should be able to be danced ie hit move
-Roaches are a stupidly boring unit, they are just crypt fiends, which were not fun, make em tanks or something, tanking for hydras
-Mutas should not be auto GG after about 10 are out, make at least archons counter them
-Terran is forced into MMM vs toss
-Collosus is not optional, it is required for every game
-this teleport pylon crap is a good idea, but makes games like 8 minutes long in many cases

But most of all.... it feels like 75% of games are decided by one base play. One base play gets old fast. What makes brood war so fun is that you could split the map in half many games and each of you would be on 5 bases, waiting for the other players macro to break or for one harass to go through unnoticed and punish the other player.

ONE BASE RUSHCRAFT WILL NOT LAST 10 YEARS
Please redo like 25% of this game
75% of it is amazing, fun, and well designed.. rushing domination, 8 minute games, attack move gameplay, low econ gaming is the 25% that needs to be redone

PLEASE DO NOT LAUNCH THIS GAME LIKE THIS
It will not last

I will be posting a lot of negative feedback as i see it, as i couldnt stand to see this game turn out sucking.

hi stomp! I have to disagree myself...

i like the faster gameplay alot and would make it even faster if i could (hoping theres that option in galaxy editor for micro maps, otherwise itll be the old school macro maps again ^^)

Maybe if there were less hard counters it would be better though... right now counters are WAYYY too hard.. 1 colossus killing 50 marines is ridiculous, tanks vs. hydralisks, etc etc etc theres way too many hard counters that make a unit completely useless almost, obviously air vs. ground only units is always going to be a hard counter, but some of the other ones are incredible lol.

I know im going to get flamed bringing it up, but like in war3 the counter for destroyers were flying machines or tech'd dragon hawks, but neither assured you victory, whoever micro'd best would win the fight no matter what even in equal food situations of the counters, it was just harder to micro the destroyers (or w/e unit it was) against the counter than vice versa, but if you outplayed your opponent, you still won.. I'm not saying zealots should kill battlecruisers or anything, just that micro seems much less important in sc2 than the original, and that macro is all the game has turned into (almost)

I still like the game a lot and will play it regardless of w/e happens with it until d3 ;p

[Proletaria]

I know im going to get flamed bringing it up, but like in war3 the counter for destroyers were flying machines or tech'd dragon hawks, but neither assured you victory, whoever micro'd best would win the fight no matter what even in equal food situations of the counters, it was just harder to micro the destroyers (or w/e unit it was) against the counter than vice versa, but if you outplayed your opponent, you still won.. I'm not saying zealots should kill battlecruisers or anything, just that micro seems much less important in sc2 than the original, and that macro is all the game has turned into (almost)

I still like the game a lot and will play it regardless of w/e happens with it until d3 ;p

This game was probably more balanced in alpha testing than wc3 is after countless patches. Just be gald there aren't any "hard-counters" that are game-breaking as the blademaster.

[Dreuel]

TvT is a joke in high-level play, 3-Fac Dropship Tanks, World War I at best, not fun at all.

Actually it was World War II where they started dropping tanks from the air.

P.S. It took me three reads to see what you did there.

[Eloderung]

People need to quit comparing SC2 to SC1. This is a new game, this is not a 12 year old game that grew into something entirely different than what it was originally intended to be. Starcraft 1 was a fluke and comparing a beta to a 12 year old 'e-sport' game is laughable.


SC2 was designed to be extremely similar to SCI, and they're failing at that.

If I want different from Starcraft, I'd go play WarIII.

[Fohobogah]

Really, it's a beta.. but it's not any beta. It's a beta hosted by Blizzard Entertainment. What does it means?

Answer :

I've played EVERY blizzard game since The Lost Vickings, so I'm starting to see what makes blizzard games better then other. Two years from now, we will look back at the beta and we will barely recognize the game. What make me sure of it? Cause I believe SC II will follow the same pattern then other Blizzard games since SC (Warcraft II didn't evolve that much, but still quite some). SC at launch and SC-BW are EXTREMELY DIFFERENT. Same for WC3 at launch and WC3 now. Diablo II followed the same pattern, orginal was a Diablo revamp with more classes, now it's a much richer game. Same for WoW, when wow came out it was ok, going back to Vanilla WoW will probably make you cry (some may argue, but the game did improve more then anything else, and overall player quality is getting higher due to experience)

What we are getting ATM is a very polished BETA, more polished then you'd expect a beta to be. Of course they need to balance stuff out, but do NOT say or expect the release to be so close to the beta, because blizzard never was scarred to update, add content and fix their games.

Concerning what the op says, it's true and false. Form my very humble experience. Game are often done within 10 minutes. It's a bit to short. But i had many opportunities to expand and it has usually given me significant advantage if the game last more then 10 minutes. But I really don'T feel any luck. When I scout and take good decision and assess my opponent forces correctly, i win, when i don't(scout and/or make good decisions) i loose.

And honestly, what game of SC didn't have a rush? I mean, unless i tough I was not gonna inflict significant dmg to my opponent's I would always rush back then, so most ppl did. They only need to fine tune rushing for games to be longer.

PS : Early scouting is NOT optional since blizzard cut the first minute of every game by increasing number of starting SCV.

[Stompey]

Maybe if there were less hard counters it would be better though... right now counters are WAYYY too hard.. 1 colossus killing 50 marines is ridiculous, tanks vs. hydralisks, etc etc etc theres way too many hard counters that make a unit completely useless almost, obviously air vs. ground only units is always going to be a hard counter, but some of the other ones are incredible lol.

I know im going to get flamed bringing it up, but like in war3 the counter for destroyers were flying machines or tech'd dragon hawks, but neither assured you victory, whoever micro'd best would win the fight no matter what even in equal food situations of the counters, it was just harder to micro the destroyers (or w/e unit it was) against the counter than vice versa, but if you outplayed your opponent, you still won.. I'm not saying zealots should kill battlecruisers or anything, just that micro seems much less important in sc2 than the original, and that macro is all the game has turned into (almost)


Agreed!

In brood war, small pockets of dragoons counter zerglings with micro, but a critical mass of zerglings counter dragoons, with micro. Zealots counter marines, with micro. Vultures counter zealots, with micro. Hydras are countered by proper storm micro. See what im getting at here?

In sc2 beta thus far: collosus counters marine, which is countered by vikings, which is countered by warp rays, which is countered by marines.

WTB softer counters and less focus on one base low econ play.

[Michael]

Goddamnit. I hate when people reply "IT"S BETA!?! LAWL STOP QQing NOOB."

Anyways. Good post. I completely agree with you.

The game is definitely based on hard counters.

[Ciez]

You cannot expect the depth of strategy and build-orders in a beta that is what, one month old? that a game like BW has. If you read or listen to people talk about the really old school BW you realize that as with any new strategy game when it is first released there is not much depth. It takes a long time to figure out all the specific tricks, specific timings based on each map and each match-up, and then little glitches get discovered that can be used. Games gain most of their depth through the meta-game.

For example, I think it was like eight years into broodwar when muta-stacking got discovered? Day9 was talking about this in one of his podcasts recently. He mentioned, and I have to agree, that if you could go back in time to the day before muta-stacking was discovered and ask one of the 8 year vets of SC:BW if they knew everything about the game, they would probably say "Oh yeah, nothing new and revolutionary could come out, we have the game down to a science." And then muta-stacking pops out of nowhere and for a month or something like that Terran simply COULD NOT beat Zerg, ever, not even a little bit. But eventually people figured out how to counter what was deemed "Unbeatable."

The same sorts of things have happened in WC3, which I'll admit I used to play, or Super Smash Bros Melee for you SSBM fans out there. Shortly after WC3 was released people claimed that the game would not be very deep, and would not require much skill, but if you watch the game today the things that the professional players do are astounding, but they weren't doing all of these things from day one.

I guess what I'm trying to say in this post is that the game is VERY new, the game is still in BETA, you might think you know a lot about the game, but really (and I mean no offense here) you don't know anything about the game, really none of us truly know anything about the game. Rushing and massing right now are the popular strats because it is the most basic strats of any RTS game, and a lot of us have come to SC2 with a lot of RTS experience under our belts, and a lot of us enjoy winning so we stick with what we know will allow us to win. People will discover clever build orders, crazy strats, all sorts of micro tricks etc etc etc. I just think it is way too early to declare the game as "broken" or to declare anything as "imba."

[Broloc]

Lol it's what? day 2-3 of the beta? and this guy is whining that people are using the same strats because "omg this game is like MORE than NEW?"

Seriously, WAIT TILL launch to qq like this. on the meantime just beta test and give feedback to blizz, they will know what to do, it's their game after all.

I do agree that everything seems to be the same every game in and out, but we have to wait for noobs to get better and for the good players to come out with new strats.

and the guy above me: muta stack discovered 8 years later? wth are you smoking?

[Lagorathia]

Is it just me or does this game need to be fixed?
I've finished from C+ on ICCUP since this game was released...and it just feels funny.

TvT is a joke in high-level play, 3-Fac Dropship Tanks, World War I at best, not fun at all.

TvZ is frustrating because it feels like you have to do a timing push to either take down their Fast Expansion, or risk getting owned by Mass Muta, which even Marines don't counter anymore? Basically forced to either rush or play catch-up with Turrets...

TvP Arbiters are stupidly OP, and should be countered by Wraiths...Zealots and Dragoons rip apart Tanks and Vultures...you are forced to get Vessels every ducking game, or Mines, which ends up being luckcrafted which unit hits the mine first??

Every game feels like mass, mass, mass, rush, rush, rush, attack-move, GOOD GAME.

Many aspects of this game need a revamp if it's supposed to be half as fun as Warcraft II was...

lul i see what u did thar

to the hydralisk directly above me: it's like week 3 dude.

[Broloc]

SC2 was designed to be extremely similar to SCI, and they're failing at that.

If I want different from Starcraft, I'd go play WarIII.

If you want the SAME Starcraft then go play SC1.




to the hydralisk directly above me: it's like week 3 dude.

Thanks, 'dude'/

[Lagorathia]

no prob dude

[Ciez]

I'm pretty sure when Day9 and his friend were talking they mentioned that muta stacking was not discovered till years and years into the game, and I THINK the exact number they threw out was 8, but I could have mis-heard them. The point I was making though was that people did not launch the game on day one and be like "Oh look, muta stacking is un-beatable by Terran" it took a while for it to be discovered, and even when it was deemed that terran COULD NOT beat it, people still discovered a way to not get owned by it.

[Carny]

I played 15 terrans today, most top 20 platinum players

7 of them 2 port banshee rushed
7 of them marauder marine rushed
1 sat in his base and teched and massed, what a wierdo

I played 5 protoss today
all 5 just massed zeals
1 proxied all his gates outside my base
4 did pylon teleport rushes into the mineral line

For lower level players, this strategy is pretty unbeatable:
send ur 9 probe into their base, rush out ur gateway and core, build 2 zealots and sit them on his ramp, while dancing ur 9 probe thats in his base the entire time, research teleport asap, now build a pylon in his mineral line while ur teleporter is upgrading, and now make him choose between killing ur proxy pylon, or losing the pylon on his gateway at the front of his base, since he will have 2-3 zeals at this point max, and will not be able to protect his ledge and also kill the proxy pylon at the same time, remember to have about 5 gates finished and mass them continuisly, CONGRATS, ur now Smuft and rank 1 pvp player! all in 7 minutes or less


I don't get it, what choice are you forcing him to make? You attack his ramp with your zealots, he defends it with his zealots. You put a probe in his mineral line, he kills it with his probes. I really don't get it. Replay?

[Stompey]

I don't get it, what choice are you forcing him to make? You attack his ramp with your zealots, he defends it with his zealots. You put a probe in his mineral line, he kills it with his probes. I really don't get it. Replay?

ugh.... he attacks your zeals on the ramp... while this is happening your probe puts a pylon on his mineral line, well just behind it... he can either send 6 probes to kill it, or let it live. Realisically you cant send 6 probes out becuase you only have about 18 at this point. Basically your zeals tie him up while this pylon produces since theres just not enuf zeals to deal with both threats. Soon as the pylon is finished you have 3 warpgates ready and u drop 3 zealots onto his probes. With descent micro you can easily kill 5-6 probes. Even if he now has 5 zeals and you have 0, his econ is messed up and you just drop 2 more gates and mass zeal him into GG.

Lets assume he sees the pylon in his mineral line and sends his 2 zeals (max u can have at this point) to kill it. Well I have 2 zeals on ur ramp waiting for your zeals to attack my pylon. While u killl my pylon, i killed your gateway pylon. Also, i dropped a second pylon farther out. Then its just a micro war of can I kill ur second pylon or should i just focus down ur zeals while i let my next proxy pylon finish.

High level PvP is unplayable right now. I cant even bother to log on and bother with it. Imagine having the same strat used on you over and over and you know its coming, but tehres absolutely no counter to it. The only possible counter would be to 3gate and skip gas and core. But then ur opponent has gas and core and u lose...

Smuft abused this strat early before most of the other plat toss knew of it, prolly watched a korean replay.

[Stompey]

"This is the beta things will get better. "

Not unless we complain right now...

Marauders NOT FUN
Roaches NOT FUN
Stalkers NOT FUN

These 3 Tier 1.5 units are ruining the game. If i mass marauders or roaches, you CANNOT EXPAND. You cannot do ANYTHING except sit in ur base, and make the required counter. Sweet I have to open with immortal every game just so i dont get marauder @@%#d. Oh and if i made that immortal and you didnt go marauders, well now you are prolly massing banshees and I have no gas to keep up with stalkers. I have to rush out my stargate and make a void ray. This is how high level play goes. Stalkers should be able to give you some kind of map control at least.

[Carny]

ugh.... he attacks your zeals on the ramp... while this is happening your probe puts a pylon on his mineral line, well just behind it... he can either send 6 probes to kill it, or let it live. Realisically you cant send 6 probes out becuase you only have about 18 at this point. Basically your zeals tie him up while this pylon produces since theres just not enuf zeals to deal with both threats. Soon as the pylon is finished you have 3 warpgates ready and u drop 3 zealots onto his probes. With descent micro you can easily kill 5-6 probes. Even if he now has 5 zeals and you have 0, his econ is messed up and you just drop 2 more gates and mass zeal him into GG.

Lets assume he sees the pylon in his mineral line and sends his 2 zeals (max u can have at this point) to kill it. Well I have 2 zeals on ur ramp waiting for your zeals to attack my pylon. While u killl my pylon, i killed your gateway pylon. Also, i dropped a second pylon farther out. Then its just a micro war of can I kill ur second pylon or should i just focus down ur zeals while i let my next proxy pylon finish.

High level PvP is unplayable right now. I cant even bother to log on and bother with it. Imagine having the same strat used on you over and over and you know its coming, but tehres absolutely no counter to it. The only possible counter would be to 3gate and skip gas and core. But then ur opponent has gas and core and u lose...

Smuft abused this strat early before most of the other plat toss knew of it, prolly watched a korean replay.

He cant kill your pylon with 6 workers because he only has 18 workers? What? It seems like no matter what hes going to kill that pylon in your base with his probes instead of let u potentially tower/warp in units on him.

[Staric]

"This is the beta things will get better. "

Not unless we complain right now...

Marauders NOT FUN
Roaches NOT FUN
Stalkers NOT FUN

These 3 Tier 1.5 units are ruining the game. If i mass marauders or roaches, you CANNOT EXPAND. You cannot do ANYTHING except sit in ur base, and make the required counter. Sweet I have to open with immortal every game just so i dont get marauder @@%#d. Oh and if i made that immortal and you didnt go marauders, well now you are prolly massing banshees and I have no gas to keep up with stalkers. I have to rush out my stargate and make a void ray. This is how high level play goes. Stalkers should be able to give you some kind of map control at least.

I find marauders Stalkers and roaches fun. Extremely so.

I think you're just not being creative enough, try other counters, try air teching, try cheesing, it's great fun.

[Rackdude]

He cant kill your pylon with 6 workers because he only has 18 workers? What? It seems like no matter what hes going to kill that pylon in your base with his probes instead of let u potentially tower/warp in units on him.

Please watch the tourny videos and be platinum before saying that. Seriously, I thought the same thing, but when you see it done right you're just baffled and concede. It is imba right now.

And yes, the WHOLE game feels like PvP right now. One good timing push, that it. And there aren't any reavers either! Or DT rushes! It feels just like mass goons and make a concave. I suspect the invention of FEs will help though.

[Carny]

give me a link because this makes no sense to me. Why wouldnt u just kill the pylon with workers and d your ramp with z's.

[Usbank]

and to everyone else, god damn. the OP is criticizing a very, very huge flaw in the game. believe or not, but games don't change that dramatically from beta to release. yes, there may be balance changes. but this is a fundamental flaw in sc2's current gameplay.



Someone wasn't in the War 3 beta then.

[Eloderung]

believe or not, but games don't change that dramatically from beta to release. yes, there may be balance changes. but this is a fundamental flaw in sc2's current gameplay.

In original WoW betas some classes received a complete revamp during beta, before the release of the game.

The skill/profession system received a huge revamp.

How did these changes come about? Devs themselves were on the forums, discussing issues side by side with the players on how to make their game more fun. Players said they were unhappy about so and so issues (just like in SC2 beta), and devs discussed ways on how to fix these problems even when they required a lot of time and effort (not like SC2 beta).

[Ciez]

I can try to answer people's questions about the whole proxy pylon rush thingy in PvP, now I haven't played it so I might be completely wrong in saying this but I think the point that they are making is this:

Player A (the aggressor) sends his 2 zeals to the ramp and his probe to behind the mineral line of Player B(defender). The probe starts warping in a pylon. If you both have 18 workers total, then Player B is screwed economically. Then Player B has to use SIX of his workers to attack the pylon, while the attacker can run his probe in circles. By the time Player B's probes can kill the pylon that is being warped in, Player A can simply summon a new pylon and the cycle keeps going, but Player A has five more probes mining minerals than Player B, and early game this is HUGE. Around this point in the game Player A is getting 25%-30% more minerals than Player B, and can simply keep massing zeals on Player B's ramp until he can overpower player B. If player B decides to move his zeals in to kill the pylon that is being warped in behind his mineral line, then player A gets to move the zeals that were on player B's ramp in and kill the pylon powering player B's gateways, and if that pylon/pylon's go down, player B cannot make any more zeals and is screwed.

Maybe I am wrong in assuming that is how it all plays out, but what is to keep Player B from building his pylon and gateway very close to his mineral line? Is that such a disadvantage that it would also cause him to lose the game?

[Fohobogah]

"This is the beta things will get better. "

Not unless we complain right now...

Marauders NOT FUN
Roaches NOT FUN
Stalkers NOT FUN

These 3 Tier 1.5 units are ruining the game. If i mass marauders or roaches, you CANNOT EXPAND. You cannot do ANYTHING except sit in ur base, and make the required counter. Sweet I have to open with immortal every game just so i dont get marauder @@%#d. Oh and if i made that immortal and you didnt go marauders, well now you are prolly massing banshees and I have no gas to keep up with stalkers. I have to rush out my stargate and make a void ray. This is how high level play goes. Stalkers should be able to give you some kind of map control at least.



First of all, Roaches are HELLA FUN to micro after burrow during early game, and it only get better when they move while burrowed. Same for marauder and stalkers, skill in micro will influence the outcome of smaller/earlier battle with those units by a lot Also, you scout for exactly that! knowing if, yes or no, the immortal is a good strategic choice.

About the pylon rush being op, let the pylon crippled, wait for him to do a SG, and finish the pylon. Works well, also managing your probes+1 zealot to kill his is important. You should always have the advantage of number in your own base since it take time to bring troops in. That pylon thing will only give him momentum if you handle it well.

[Dreuel]

How did these changes come about? Devs themselves were on the forums, discussing issues side by side with the players on how to make their game more fun. Players said they were unhappy about so and so issues (just like in SC2 beta), and devs discussed ways on how to fix these problems even when they required a lot of time and effort (not like SC2 beta).

As the WoW developers who do post on the forums frequently point out, their sharing information with the players is a nice but in no way necessary part of the process.

[Rizaun]

Someone wasn't in the War 3 beta then.

Agreed, people should also take a look at the first SC beta too, a lot of things changed.

[Bibdy]

Agreed, people should also take a look at the first SC beta too, a lot of things changed.

Nah, Vultures never had infinite spider mines, Mutalisks never had an acid spray attack (like you see in the final Protoss cutscene), casters never had base attacks (guess where the Mutalisk's glaive attack came from)...that's just madness.

[Fohobogah]

Someone wasn't in the War 3 beta then.

Heck, someone was never in any beta from blizzard!

[Nightmare]

This just in: 3 week old Beta not ready for release.

More at 11.

[Rackdude]

give me a link because this makes no sense to me. Why wouldnt u just kill the pylon with workers and d your ramp with z's.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114987&currentpage=3

The replays are all over TL.

[Eloderung]

As the WoW developers who do post on the forums frequently point out, their sharing information with the players is a nice but in no way necessary part of the process.

They are.

For example, in the WotLK tests, people were complaining a lot about a few talents with the priest tree. A blue developer (not a CM) posted that the team thought this ability was fine, that they didn't need this ability. About a week later, with back and forth posts between the blue poster and a lot of feedback from testers, the developer changed his mind and decided to put the talent changes in. People were happy because of it.

They CAN do it without developers posting on the forums, but given that absolutely nothing useful is happening with this beta test, I'd highly suggest that they get the developers out and on these forums.

Just because SC2 is the sequel to SCI doesn't mean SC2 will automatically be an amazing game with zero effort from the devs, and that's what it feels like right now. If people are complaining so much about the latency, hard counter system, lack of chat, and so on right now, how bad do you think the complaining will be after release? How many people will choose to stick around on battle.net, and instead move onto third party online services such as ICCUP once again? How will that look on blizzard's part?

I'm amazed that so many people are content with mediocrity. Blizzard isn't SoE, and they shouldn't treat this beta like SoE treats their betas.

WoW is a game that has 11.5 million active subscribers now, when the next largest MMO had only 500,000. They transformed a genre in the same way SCI transformed RTS games. And they could never have done that if they didn't listen to their testers, both for the original game, BC, and WotLK - as testers directly influenced a very large portion of what WoW is today, and what WoW was on release.

If blizzard wants to ignore the beta testers, they'll have to deal with the consequences in the short term on release (the community), and possibly in the long term (can we really trust blizzard to make a quality Warcraft IV or Starcraft III now?). Die-hard fans - people like you who would be happy if Starcraft II was nothing more than a steaming pile of cow poo that had the words "Starcraft II" embedded in it - are in a minority, and blizzard should be more concerned about appealing to the larger population that constitutes the majority of their fanbase, and new fans who haven't experienced a blizzard game before.

By the way, I'm a die-hard fan of blizzard as well, but that doesn't mean I lose my objectivity and worship blizzard for a product that is, by their standards, sub-par even for a beta test.

[Dreuel]

They are.

They've expressed the opinion that it's nice but not necessary. In this instance, their opinion trumps your opinion.

Edit: Comments to this effect from developers are usually coupled with pointing out that silence on an issue doesn't mean the feedback isn't watched closely or taken into account.

[Dreuel]

but given that absolutely nothing useful is happening with this beta test, I'd highly suggest that they get the developers out and on these forums.

BTW, you seem to repeatedly feel the need to offer opinions about how ineffectual the testing process seems to be to you. I'd suggest that (a) feeding you information back about what they think of your feedback isn't necessarily valuable, other than to make you feel like a special and unique snowflake of a beta tester. (b) there have been numerous patches in the couple of weeks of beta testing so far, and while the game changes have been minor, arguably major changes, if any were coming, would take longer. (c) it's also pretty clear that your opinions have been solicited on the game, not the testing process itself, and dwelling on that distracts attention from your game-related points.

[Eloderung]

They've expressed the opinion that it's nice but not necessary. In this instance, their opinion trumps your opinion.

Edit: Comments to this effect from developers are usually coupled with pointing out that silence on an issue doesn't mean the feedback isn't watched closely or taken into account.

Actions speak louder than words.

Actions = past four patches.

Of course, they can compensate by communicating more, even if their communications are not what I want to hear it'd be a good step forward in the right direction.

[Dreuel]

Die-hard fans - people like you who would be happy if Starcraft II was nothing more than a steaming pile of cow poo that had the words "Starcraft II" embedded in it - are in a minority

I think you have the wrong guy. I played Starcraft for a total of about 3 hours before the 22nd of February.

[Dreuel]

Of course, they can compensate by communicating more, even if their communications are not what I want to hear it'd be a good step forward in the right direction.

I'd venture a guess that they're in a major development crunch right now, and have decided that writing numerous posts to answer all these comments would take a big chunk of attention away from actually finishing the game.

[Nightmare]

What do you want the devs to say Elo? "Ok we'll take this in to consideration"? They're already doing that, so they shouldn't have to say it for every idea that comes out.

You know as well as I do that the VAST majority of Blue discussions on the forum would go something like this:

Player A: OMG NERF THIS UNIT.
Player B: I kno rite 2 hard 2 beet this unit i just wnat 2 mass carryers
Player C: You guys are noobs
Player A: NO UR A NOOB @*@
Player D: I for one will type an eloquent verbose post on my feelings on this unit relative to power and use and with excellent grammar will attempt to justify myself that way.
Blue: It's 3 weeks in. We have no plans to change said unit at this time unless we perceive a long term imbalance in higher level play. For now, this is working as intended.
Player C: Right on blue.
Player A: OMFG THIS BULL*%!! YOU SUCK BLIZZARD
Player B: dood not buying SC2 lol back 2 barrens chat 4 me
Player D: I will make a long and verbose post defending how this unit is overpowered and will attempt to change your mind, blue poster.
Player A: @%@@%@ KOREAN GAMERS WHO ARE REALLY GOOD GET THE GAME BALANCED AROUND THEM
Player E (the only one who's actually good, and pretty much the only one who has valid comments on balancing issues): Stop crying kids, Reapers are fine.

[Eloderung]

Third and last post -- I think you have the wrong guy. I played Starcraft for a total of about 3 hours before the 22nd of February.

As good as you think this game is, SCI's gameplay is far better and far more in-depth. Play a few SCI games and you'll be amazed at the variety of strategies and tactics that can be used by high-end players, relative to this game.

There's a reason why it's the national sport of Korea, even at 12 years of age. I'm very skeptical that SC2 will usurp SCI in Korea.

What do you want the devs to say Elo? "Ok we'll take this in to consideration"? They're already doing that, so they shouldn't have to say it for every idea that comes out.

You know as well as I do that the VAST majority of Blue discussions on the forum would go something like this:

Player A: OMG NERF THIS UNIT.
Player B: I kno rite 2 hard 2 beet this unit i just wnat 2 mass carryers
Player C: You guys are noobs
Player A: NO UR A NOOB @*@
Player D: I for one will type an eloquent verbose post on my feelings on this unit relative to power and use and with excellent grammar will attempt to justify myself that way.
Blue: It's 3 weeks in. We have no plans to change said unit at this time unless we perceive a long term imbalance in higher level play. For now, this is working as intended.
Player C: Right on blue.
Player A: OMFG THIS BULL*%!! YOU SUCK BLIZZARD
Player B: dood not buying SC2 lol back 2 barrens chat 4 me
Player D: I will make a long and verbose post defending how this unit is overpowered and will attempt to change your mind, blue poster.
Player A: @%@@%@ KOREAN GAMERS WHO ARE REALLY GOOD GET THE GAME BALANCED AROUND THEM
Player E (the only one who's actually good, and pretty much the only one who has valid comments on balancing issues): Stop crying kids, Reapers are fine.

Yes, I already figured out that this playerbase is far less mature than that of WoW's. That doesn't make communication worthless for the many on these forums who do provide meaningful and thoughtful idea on what is wrong with the game, and how to improve it.

It certainly makes no excuse for not responding to issues like b.net 2.0 latency being no better than 1998, ability to reconnect to games, any sort of commentary on the outdated networking model SC2 runs off of for games, all of the other b.net 2.0 issues, and everything else that's wrong with this game that is heavily requested by the vast majority of users on these forums.

[Dreuel]

As good as you think this game is

You've completely misread my posts. I'm pointing out that your opinions on the beta process aren't what they're looking for, and distract attention from your comments on the game. That's not a comment on the game itself.

Just because I think you're off base when you complain about how the beta testing is being conducted, or complain about developers not doing anything when you have no clue what they are or aren't doing, doesn't mean I think your comments on the game are wrong. I just think you're presenting them rudely and in a way that is likely to make developer-readers tune out.

As for my personal opinion on the game, I'm on the fence. I'm playing at a level where both I and my opponents are pretty much trying random stuff to see what sticks, so I'm in no position to disagree with you.

[Eloderung]

I just think you're presenting them rudely and in a way that is likely to make developer-readers tune out.

WoW developers call my style of criticism of their games "passionate". And they welcome it. Whether you agree with my opinions or not, if you offer no criticism to developers they don't know what players want, and they can't make any changes to improve their game. Or in this case, how they're conducting the beta test. The two are tied hand-in-hand, as anyone who has done betas for WarIII and WoW can tell you how much the game changed from day1 of beta to the final day. (Incidentally, I can also tell you how much betas changed from day1 to week#3 as well in the betas I have participated in).

But hey, this sort of harsh criticism is what transformed Starcraft from the joke of a game known as "Orcs in Space" before release into the best game of all time. Same harsh criticism which has shaped WoW through the years and made it into a better / more successful game, from the hardcore-only EQ grindfest clone it initially was five years ago.

[Teamworktom]

Is it just me or does this game need to be fixed?
I've finished from C+ on ICCUP since this game was released...and it just feels funny.

TvT is a joke in high-level play, 3-Fac Dropship Tanks, World War I at best, not fun at all.

TvZ is frustrating because it feels like you have to do a timing push to either take down their Fast Expansion, or risk getting owned by Mass Muta, which even Marines don't counter anymore? Basically forced to either rush or play catch-up with Turrets...

TvP Arbiters are stupidly OP, and should be countered by Wraiths...Zealots and Dragoons rip apart Tanks and Vultures...you are forced to get Vessels every ducking game, or Mines, which ends up being luckcrafted which unit hits the mine first??

Every game feels like mass, mass, mass, rush, rush, rush, attack-move, GOOD GAME.

Many aspects of this game need a revamp if it's supposed to be half as fun as Warcraft II was...

Don't know about you but have you tried using the viking against mutas? You can pump them out way fast and they take out mutas nicely.

I have yet to have a problem with mutas, but then i haven't played a zerg that used them while i was play toss.

Your all just thinking to shallow, every game ive played lasts about 14 mins, and by that time im able to have 2 of every type of production factory + have at least 2 expansions.

Maybe im playing super scrubs but damn, you guys gotta be quick on everything you do, if i have more than 400 minerals at anytime im doing something wrong.

I get those minerals i build a new expansion, even while attacking, and i bet my APM is lower than hell.

But i do agree this games imbalanced dunno what yet, only played like 10 games, but im winning using some cheese way way cheese straights.

[Stompey]

How about if someone posts what aspect of the game needs most attention right now.

My vote is on increasing macro style play and helping to eliminate low econ rushing. Not sure how this can be done really, with all the gimick rushes that are possible.

How about moving warpgates way up the tech tree, along with the reactor upgrade and queens...

These seem to be at the core of the mass mass mass philosophy. Every race can pump out units way faster then sc1, yet defenses seem weaker then ever.

[Glenrock]

It's been said before but while people may be right saying the current beta wot last 10 years, Blizzard is well respected for not being able to tweak or even nearly overhaul their games to achieve what makes it most fun for the most players. WoW is obviously testament to this fact, but is expected since it is an MMO. Even so, WoW 1.0 was released as an unrecognizable experience from today's game, no extra action bars, no raid frames, no text on the party interface to name some of the few absolute necessities needed today. They released bosses and encounters that could not be beaten by top raids for months at the start ad yet it still had what it needed even then to be the vest MMO ever.

Starcraft 1 was released with many glaring fixes needed... Carriers only had 4 intercepters (sure it's balance but single player was a pain!) and same with reavers. It's been a while since I installed the
game off my 1.0 CDs so I'd have to check for more but play the game as 1.0 if you can and then say that release determines a game's fate). I assure you, especially with Blizz, it doesn't.

[Nightmare]

Don't know about you but have you tried using the viking against mutas? You can pump them out way fast and they take out mutas nicely.

I have yet to have a problem with mutas, but then i haven't played a zerg that used them while i was play toss.

Your all just thinking to shallow, every game ive played lasts about 14 mins, and by that time im able to have 2 of every type of production factory + have at least 2 expansions.

Maybe im playing super scrubs but damn, you guys gotta be quick on everything you do, if i have more than 400 minerals at anytime im doing something wrong.

I get those minerals i build a new expansion, even while attacking, and i bet my APM is lower than hell.

But i do agree this games imbalanced dunno what yet, only played like 10 games, but im winning using some cheese way way cheese straights.

/facepalm

Elo I agree with the lack of blue communication on technical issues on B.net 2.0 are a bit unacceptable.

[Fenrirlupus]

OP post is constructive

That's relevant if OP means overpowered.