Debate balancing roaches

[Minos]

I'll shoot first, a HP reduction might help, but that might be using an axe where a scalpel is needed.

It feels like they are able to be produced en masse too quickly. They got all kinds of great abilities and i think that should stay but their effectiveness at tier 1 somehow needs to be borked.

Maybe a HP and/or damage buff at tier 2 along with a nerf @ tier 1. That way it wouldn't loose it's effectiveness at higher tiers and wouldn't be the bread and butter rush unit of tier 1.

Slower movement speed, shorter range?

Then of course the other things that could be done would be increased resources to build the roach warren as well as the unit, and possibly and increased time on building the warren so defenses etc. could be better constructed to reward the player who is prepared.

Right now even if u are prepared, it's pretty difficult to defend a roach rush w/o help of an allie.

[Mindless]

Yes every one agrees Roach needs a slit nerf not much.. Maybe +1 population or -2 dmg.

But the problem with nerfing roach is no one will play Zerg, probably...

[Staric]

I could honestly see keeping them where they're at and just upping the cost as being pretty effective.

They are very powerful and should have their cost balanced accordingly.

[Minos]

I think +1 population might just solve it.

If they're nerfed people will still play zerg.

I know it's probably hard to believe but as crazy as it sounds there are actually other strategies to playing zerg than roach rushing. I know about 90% of zerg players think im crazy but it's true.

Theres actually a whole world of strategy beyond roaches that is actually a lot of fun, which is why roaches need to be nerfed. The game is so much funner w/o cheap rushes.

[Azureflames]

Yes every one agrees Roach needs a slit nerf not much.. Maybe +1 population or -2 dmg.

But the problem with nerfing roach is no one will play Zerg, probably...

+1 population is an insane nerf. Have to spend double on overlords both mineral wise and larva wise. If you nerf roaches then zerg have nothing good in tier 1. Changing armor from 2->1 seems like the best change.

[Joneleth]

Slightly-increase the cost and build time.

Nothing else.

[Staric]

+1 population is an insane nerf. Have to spend double on overlords both mineral wise and larva wise. If you nerf roaches then zerg have nothing good in tier 1. Changing armor from 2->1 seems like the best change.The solution would be to nerf roaches and buff things like Hydras (their speed) and make ultralisks easier to tech to maybe.

Admittedly my knowledge of zerg is basic, but roaches are definitely OP as of now.

[Frozen]

Roaches aren't bad. Zealots and Sentries make short work of them, as does MM.

[Omegaman]

They need a slight nerf. They are too cheap for their HP and mobility. Maybe make them cost 2 food. That way massing them is more expensive but a decent size force is cheap to field for defense.

Compare roaches to the maurader which has less hp armour and damage but costs more minerals and 2 food. The 6 range and the medivac heal only start to come into play mid game. It's the early 5-7min roach that is super powerful now.

Against protoss, roaches pown all gateway units but the immortal powns roaches. But this makes play so predictable in PvZ. I'd rather a more subtle balance where Gateway units have a chance with good micro.

Another possibly tweak is to make them more of a defensive unit like the queen is, how she is slow when not on creep. That way they are still very useful for defense and require a speed upgrade to be useful on offense. Sorta like zealot needs charge with a long research time to be an all purpose offense unit. Roaches could need a long upgrade before being as useful.

[Karabias]

2 supply cost. Problem solved. Every other unit that has a cost of 100 or more between gas and/or minerals takes 2 supplies if I remember correctly.

[Nightmare]

I agree, Roaches are not very fun the way they are now. The unit is slow, and it's range is too short to do anything with. The armor and straight damage is nice, but seriously you can't do anything with them. In ZvZ I feel like if I want to get Roaches, I'll get completely decimated by quick pool Zerglings that harass my workers while I play ultra-conservative 13 pool or 10 Hatch pool and try to tech straight to a 1.5 unit. Seriously, by the time I secure my economy to make Roaches effectivly he already has Zerglings in my base, killing my workers, and pretty soon after I get my first wave of Roaches, his Zerglings have turned into Speedlings and he has 30 of them. My Roaches kill them ok IF THEY CATCH THEM, but Speedlings move so fast that I have to wait until I get a Lair and then the Roach speed upgrade to make my Roaches defend. In the meantime the Zerg player who built Zerglings is playing bait-and-switch with his ever increasing number of units too fast for the poor slow Roach to deal with, and is expanding, upgrading, and teching into Mutas or Infestors for harassment.

Seriously Blizzard, please consider buffing the Roach. Maybe make it faster to tech to, increase its move speed, and maybe give it the speed upgrade for free. Otherwise Speedlings will walk (more like run) all over me. Thanks guys!

[Nataku]

Yes every one agrees Roach needs a slit nerf not much.. Maybe +1 population or -2 dmg.

But the problem with nerfing roach is no one will play Zerg, probably...

i have only once relied on roaches, for the second game i played and proptly beat somone who was also zerg but was cussing me out for using stratagy, and have since then moved onto hydra. stll build a warran in case i see them comming with roaches (always keep watch furher out) then i can pump some counter. hydra own almost everything i send them aginst, and hydra with nydus is just evil.

[Disastorm]

I think roach should not get nerfed at all. I don't see anything about them that makes them stronger than any of the other units. If they get nerfed, then some other Zerg unit would need to get buffed to keep it balanced. Or another possibility is to change the roach since people don't like its regen, lower its regen but increase its attack range or something like that. I definitely dont think increasing its supply to 2 is a good idea, then its pretty much a crap unit. Atm roach rushes pretty much can't kill anyone.

[Overtow]

I'm not really a big fan of theorycraft but the following may be an explanation as to why blizzard chose to make the Roach the way it is. This isn't an argument for or against the Roach (or other race's units for that matter). Its just a long list of utter speculation, though i hope its informative.

Zerglings require a spawning pool(200 minerals).
Roahces require a roach warren(150 minerals 50 gas), which requires a spawning pool.
Same goes for the baneling nest (100 minerals 100 gas)
Thats 450 minerals and 150 gas until zerg gain access to all their tier one units.
Marines require a barracks (150 minerals).
Marauders and Reapers require an attached tech lab (50 minerals 50 gas)
For 200 minerals and 50 gas Terran gain access for their entire tier one army, which is sooner than the other races.
Protoss Gateways (150 minerals) produce Zealots initially, and Stalkers and Sentries with a cybernetics core (another 150 minerals)
For 300 minerals, Protoss gain access to their tier one units.

It takes Zerg longer to diversify their army which could make countering armies more of a problem.

Roaches have one great ability that isn't available until tier 2 (its health regen only works while burrowed).
So it might not take Zerg longer to expand their army, but it certainly is more economically intensive than the other races. While this doesn't necessarily address whether or not the Roach is op, it does explain why fast training times are important, and the importance only increases when you consider how weak (initially) the zergling is.
2 > one marine
3-4 > one zealot

The cost of each unit reflects this. You're basically paying for quality. 2 zerglings cost the same as one marine but are individually much weaker than that marine. 1 zealot is twice s expensive and a higher quality unity. For Zerg to effectively deal with zealots, I've found the best possible solution is a burrowed baneling.

The Roache's high damage could be attributed to the fact that no tier one zerg unit deals bonus damage against armored and both Protoss and Terran have easily accessible armored units.
Although Roaches do have more hps than other tier one units (across all races). But i think that the ability for the Zerg to mass these units is important, so we will likely see a decrease in armor and HP or perhaps an increase in minerals/gas.

[Megabud]

Nop... move hydra back to tier one, like they used to be (one food with lower dmg)...

move roaches tier2, buff them and change it to 2 food.

problem solved. (and my aa problem also)

[mark]

Ok, i understand your concern for the strength of roaches, but consider that Terran Marauders make extremely short work of roaches and are not difficult to get out in time if you scout the zerg. And for Toss, i'll admit it's difficult but with stalkers and a sentry bubble is possible to stop roaches. For Zerg....haha more roaches.

[Zomu]

I think a +1 supply increase or maybe a slightly longer hatching time would really balance them out. It would give the enemy a few more seconds to build his army


Also, just throwing this out there, I REALLY dislike the ability of roaches to move while burrowed, for a Tier 1.5 unit, its much to accessible. if anything, move the ability to move while burrowed upgrade to a later tier, perhaps 2

[engineer]

I think blizz should just reduce roach starting armor. That way, the roach will be more of a soft counter to the t1 units like the ling and the marine. It'll open up more ZvZ strategies, and make roach pushes weaker in the early game while keeping them strong once you get upgrades.

And yes, if blizz nerfs roaches, they have to boost other zerg units. I hope they do this! That's not a reason to avoid nerfing roaches. Right now, I think zerg is the most unbalanced race -- all I ever see are roaches, hydra, and mutas. These units are comparatively strong, and the rest of the zerg units are comparatively weaksauce.

[Nightmare]

I think blizz should just reduce roach starting armor. That way, the roach will be more of a soft counter to the t1 units like the ling and the marine. It'll open up more ZvZ strategies, and make roach pushes weaker in the early game while keeping them strong once you get upgrades.

And yes, if blizz nerfs roaches, they have to boost other zerg units. I hope they do this! That's not a reason to avoid nerfing roaches. Right now, I think zerg is the most unbalanced race -- all I ever see are roaches, hydra, and mutas. These units are comparatively strong, and the rest of the zerg units are comparatively weaksauce.

Well here's the thing (I picked your post because it best illustrated the most points), I actually disagree with the standard style of play. I think that the Zergling is much stronger and far more versatile than the Roach. If you suspect a Zerg player of getting Roaches in ZvZ, get Zerglings QUICKLY and push his *##% in. The straight to mass Roaches strategy that everyone seems to hate has an INCREDIBLY greedy build order, and can not deal with any sort of disruption to it's economy whatsoever. But even if you don't stop them outright, they are severely far behind (they can't rush Roaches because their econ should be all but dead), and you can win a macro game against them easily.

The reason you are seeing so many Roach rushes isn't because it's a strong strategy, it's because people are new to the game or don't know how to handle a rush. They see Roaches coming, they get scared and start to panic and their whole game goes to *##%. They don't micro, they don't build reinforcements, they just go OMGOMG ROACHES *##% *##%...DAMN I LOSE. When people wise up you will see better, more diverse Zerg strategies (and a lot of them are coming out now). But I would actually consider the Roach to be among the most rigid (and therefore worst) units in the entire Zerg arsenal.

I don't think we'll be seeing Roach nerfs (or at least Roach Rush nerfs) anytime soon when higher level players have absolutely no problem dismantling the tactic. Since the game is (and should be) balanced around higher level play, you will have to adapt their tactics (or create your own) in order to survive. Welcome to the world of Real Time Strategy.

[Zeku]

Hydras in tier 2 are the source of every problem I can find in this game.


1. Lair (and subsequently, all teching) has to be fast to give zerg a chance against techers.
2. Marauders have to whoop serious ass (at range 6) to be able to counter roaches.
3. Marauders have to have crappy armor to have some kind of weakness to other units.
4. Hydras have to be overbuffed at tier 2, making them a serious tech investment that still dies to other race's tier 1 killer.
5. Air is overdominant, because all the surface to air units are wimpy or weird or appear late.


"Roach micro" never happened. It was a great experiment and it didn't work out. I don't necessarily believe roaches need to be in tier 2, they just need to have a purpose that distinguishes them from zerglings. Zerg having 3 or even 4 tier 1 units is perfectly consistent and fun.

[Minos]

THE BEST IDEA YET:

- +1 population to a total of 2 per roach.
- change it from armored to light, infantry unit

[Fors]

+1 population is an insane nerf. Have to spend double on overlords both mineral wise and larva wise. If you nerf roaches then zerg have nothing good in tier 1. Changing armor from 2->1 seems like the best change.

100 minerals divided by 10 units is 10 minerals. I think roaches cost about 145 minerals right now (I'm probably wrong. Any Zerg players out there?). So this doesn't seem like a huge nerf at all to me.

And how would you have to spend double larva-wise? It's not like you're going to need 2 larva to make one roach.

[Wat]

Hydras in tier 2 are the source of every problem I can find in this game.


1. Lair (and subsequently, all teching) has to be fast to give zerg a chance against techers.
2. Marauders have to whoop serious ass (at range 6) to be able to counter roaches.
3. Marauders have to have crappy armor to have some kind of weakness to other units.
4. Hydras have to be overbuffed at tier 2, making them a serious tech investment that still dies to other race's tier 1 killer.
5. Air is overdominant, because all the surface to air units are wimpy or weird or appear late.


"Roach micro" never happened. It was a great experiment and it didn't work out. I don't necessarily believe roaches need to be in tier 2, they just need to have a purpose that distinguishes them from zerglings. Zerg having 3 or even 4 tier 1 units is perfectly consistent and fun.agreed especially on the air part

[Stuff]

Swap them with Hydralisks in tech placement, decrease health, decrease health regen while burrowed.

Basically turn them into a midgame harasser. Let Hydras remain the zerg staple ranged.

[Rybka]

Well here's the thing (I picked your post because it best illustrated the most points), I actually disagree with the standard style of play. I think that the Zergling is much stronger and far more versatile than the Roach. If you suspect a Zerg player of getting Roaches in ZvZ, get Zerglings QUICKLY and push his *##% in. The straight to mass Roaches strategy that everyone seems to hate has an INCREDIBLY greedy build order, and can not deal with any sort of disruption to it's economy whatsoever. But even if you don't stop them outright, they are severely far behind (they can't rush Roaches because their econ should be all but dead), and you can win a macro game against them easily.

The reason you are seeing so many Roach rushes isn't because it's a strong strategy, it's because people are new to the game or don't know how to handle a rush. They see Roaches coming, they get scared and start to panic and their whole game goes to *##%. They don't micro, they don't build reinforcements, they just go OMGOMG ROACHES *##% *##%...DAMN I LOSE. When people wise up you will see better, more diverse Zerg strategies (and a lot of them are coming out now). But I would actually consider the Roach to be among the most rigid (and therefore worst) units in the entire Zerg arsenal.

I don't think we'll be seeing Roach nerfs (or at least Roach Rush nerfs) anytime soon when higher level players have absolutely no problem dismantling the tactic. Since the game is (and should be) balanced around higher level play, you will have to adapt their tactics (or create your own) in order to survive. Welcome to the world of Real Time Strategy.

This post is amazing, and it sums up my feelings on the matter perfectly. If players like Artosis and Oversky can deal with it, YOU get to try to deal with it. Welcome to hardcore RTS gaming. Enjoy your stay.

[Fors]

I recently wrote up a thread on the suggestion forums about roaches, maybe you guys might be interested to take a look and hopefully bump me. :P

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23425470633&postId=234233741670&sid=5000#0

[Johnson]

one of these should be done

reduce roach armor

increase spawn time

reduce damage, but give them bonus to something

reduce health regen when burrowed

increase cost/research time of roach upgrade: rather not see this but it would probably help.

[Heng]

A) The Feedback - Suggestions/Balance forums are that way --> http://forums.battle.net/board.html?forumId=25352526&sid=5000

B) Roaches are far from overpowered. They get smoked by marauders, stalkers, etc. If you're trying to push zealots, zerglings, or marines against them, that's the same argument as saying Thors need to be nerfed cause they kill your marines. Try comparing apples to apples.

TL;DR = less QQ, moar pew pew.

[Psionic]

A) The Feedback - Suggestions/Balance forums are that way --> http://forums.battle.net/board.html?forumId=25352526&sid=5000

B) Roaches are far from overpowered. They get smoked by marauders, stalkers, etc. If you're trying to push zealots, zerglings, or marines against them, that's the same argument as saying Thors need to be nerfed cause they kill your marines. Try comparing apples to apples.

TL;DR = less QQ, moar pew pew.

You're an idiot if you think stalkers beat roaches. I've had more luck with charge upgraded zealots than I have with stalkers

[Mononaut]

100 minerals divided by 10 units is 10 minerals. I think roaches cost about 145 minerals right now (I'm probably wrong. Any Zerg players out there?). So this doesn't seem like a huge nerf at all to me.

And how would you have to spend double larva-wise? It's not like you're going to need 2 larva to make one roach.

What the hell are you talking about? Overlords only give 8 supply, not 10, roaches currently cost 75/25, and 1 supply. If you increased that to 2 supply, you would have to build one more overlord for every 4 roaches, adding an effective 25 mineral cost per roach.

[Wintermute]

Yes every one agrees Roach needs a slit nerf not much.. Maybe +1 population or -2 dmg.

But the problem with nerfing roach is no one will play Zerg, probably...

Doubling their food cost would be a massive nerf.

Roaches don't need any nerfs. Seriously. It's a new unit, and new players don't know how to deal with it, but any one who is any good can deal with it fine after a dozen games.

[Dislyxec]

I think making the Roach Warren +X vespene gas would be enough to slow down the build to the point of balance. And/Or another potential solution is to increase Roach Warren build time +Y seconds should also work. I'm thinking X=50 gas and Y = 10 seconds should be good.

Wholesale changes to the armor type, unit hp etc throws everything else out of balance. The main issue with the build times is that the window for zergling rushing a roach build is incredibly small due to having to run across the map. Once you get there, you have a small chance to do enough damage before the first few roaches pop out.
Once a few roaches pop out, the zlings are toast (especially with one queen transfusion) So, increasing the vespene gas cost of the actual building itself slows down the build enough for a quick zergling rush to do enough harassment to discourage a zerg player from skipping zerglings entirely.

Other races can already deal with roaches fairly easily if they scout and see it coming.

[Herpderp]

I wont mind if they nerf roaches (halve their health regen?) if they buff zerglings. Lings are just so.... #%*%ty.

Also, while they're at it they should do something to hyrdras, ultralisks and infestors. Ultralisks and infestors are near useless. Dig through one thousand pro games and you wont see a single ultralisk. Maybe you'll see an infestor, who knows.

Hydras are nice and all, just it feels like they are only in the game for novelty and anti air. They are too similar to roaches and need something to separate them.

[Sodamuffin]

Terran get their hard non-flying counter to Roaches by the time the Roach Warren is up, and Stalkers can keep Roaches at bay until Immortals come out. Stop being terrible.

[Havoc]

Roaches are like the SC2 Bogeyman. Very few people who complain about them have even fought them in excess, but their reputation casts a shadow over whoever they face. "OH SHI- ROACHES" and they pretty much fumble up 'til they lose.

[Timberwolf]

My 2c on it all:

Keep the armor as is.

However, as some people have said, add the +1 to food cost. Another possible addition is to add a 25-50 gas cost to the roach warren.

[Havoc]

My 2c on it all:

Keep the armor as is.

However, as some people have said, add the +1 to food cost. Another possible addition is to add a 25-50 gas cost to the roach warren.

Both way too huge of nerfs. Roaches will never ever be used if they cost as much freakin' vespene or supplies as a hydralisk.

[Timberwolf]

Both way too huge of nerfs. Roaches will never ever be used if they cost as much freakin' vespene or supplies as a hydralisk.
O yes they will. Sure they wont be used by the time you get to hydras but you can be sure theyll be on the field before that. Who sees roaches mid/late game now anyways?

[Havoc]

O yes they will. Sure they wont be used by the time you get to hydras but you can be sure theyll be on the field before that. Who sees roaches mid/late game now anyways?


Roaches are only good in good numbers, IE 7-8. No sensible zerg player would burn 400 Vespene on a roach rush when they could advance to a Lair and get both a spire -and- hydralisk den for the same price.

[Zakaria]

Well here's the thing (I picked your post because it best illustrated the most points), I actually disagree with the standard style of play. I think that the Zergling is much stronger and far more versatile than the Roach. If you suspect a Zerg player of getting Roaches in ZvZ, get Zerglings QUICKLY and push his *##% in. The straight to mass Roaches strategy that everyone seems to hate has an INCREDIBLY greedy build order, and can not deal with any sort of disruption to it's economy whatsoever. But even if you don't stop them outright, they are severely far behind (they can't rush Roaches because their econ should be all but dead), and you can win a macro game against them easily.

The reason you are seeing so many Roach rushes isn't because it's a strong strategy, it's because people are new to the game or don't know how to handle a rush. They see Roaches coming, they get scared and start to panic and their whole game goes to *##%. They don't micro, they don't build reinforcements, they just go OMGOMG ROACHES *##% *##%...DAMN I LOSE. When people wise up you will see better, more diverse Zerg strategies (and a lot of them are coming out now). But I would actually consider the Roach to be among the most rigid (and therefore worst) units in the entire Zerg arsenal.

I don't think we'll be seeing Roach nerfs (or at least Roach Rush nerfs) anytime soon when higher level players have absolutely no problem dismantling the tactic. Since the game is (and should be) balanced around higher level play, you will have to adapt their tactics (or create your own) in order to survive. Welcome to the world of Real Time Strategy.

I agree, i personally don't have any problems with Roaches (i play Terran), i don't see them as op or anything like that. In fact i have more problems with burrowed groups of Banelings being used as mines...

[Comtrav]

Terran get their hard non-flying counter to Roaches by the time the Roach Warren is up, and Stalkers can keep Roaches at bay until Immortals come out. Stop being terrible.

Personally, I hate that the hard counters are this important at T1.

Reducing Roach Armor by 1 (to make them counter Marines/Zealots less) and accordingly giving Marauders/Immortal a smaller +armor damage bonus. Marines/Zealots should have a chance against Roaches, and Roaches should have a chance against Marauder/Immortal.

We can give roaches a special armor upgrade like Ultralisk, a unit named Roach should be extremely hard to kill.

[Baked]

maybe the problem isnt the roach but the queen and the larva pumpin?? maybe ruduce this count to 3 instead of 4?


idk just spitballin here...

[Wingless]

Roaches arent bad and more importantly they are crucial to zerg tier 1. Thats why blizz hasn't touched them yet they are going to be hard to nerf if at all. Honestly at this point my roach rushes are not effective. They are stopped by good players everytime. Roaches dont even need a nerf I think.

[Namhcir]

Yes every one agrees Roach needs a slit nerf not much.. Maybe +1 population or -2 dmg.

But the problem with nerfing roach is no one will play Zerg, probably...

i'd be more inclined to play zerg if they nerfed roaches, you know how boring zerg is to play right now? Zerg mirror matches are probably the dumbest thing in any RTS ever...

and to guy above, roach rushes are not broken, its late game roaches that are 1 food and as "tanky" as other races 2 food units making them incredibly overpowered in the late game, seriously after watching cowgomoo lose to straight roaches like 5 times (literally no other units mixed in cept once) it was pretty retarded and made me feel not so bad for losing to mass roaches as terran anymore

[Shinosai]

i'd be more inclined to play zerg if they nerfed roaches, you know how boring zerg is to play right now? Zerg mirror matches are probably the dumbest thing in any RTS ever...

and to guy above, roach rushes are not broken, its late game roaches that are 1 food and as "tanky" as other races 2 food units making them incredibly overpowered in the late game, seriously after watching cowgomoo lose to straight roaches like 5 times (literally no other units mixed in cept once) it was pretty retarded and made me feel not so bad for losing to mass roaches as terran anymore

The fast expo w/ quick roaches is pretty balanced to fight against as terran, eh? So you have to have as many marauders as they have roaches to fight them off, only marauders cost twice as much food!

I certainly don't feel bad when I lose to roach -> fast expand.

[Yaz]

Yes every one agrees Roach needs a slit nerf not much.. Maybe +1 population or -2 dmg.

But the problem with nerfing roach is no one will play Zerg, probably...

Actually a lot of people disagree as a lot of people have learnt how to counter them.