PvZ Muta counter?

[Derslap]

Stalkers & Sentires get chewed in no time and all, and LOL, Phoenixes.

What is it?

[Mbojangles]

stalkers and sentries and lol pheonix's


Are you using sentries shield? Do you actually have an equal amount of stalkers to mutas?

[Darkness]

Stalkers & Sentires get chewed in no time and all, and LOL, Phoenixes.

What is it?\

The answer is to push the zerg and end it before he can get mutas.

But if it does happen to get late game with a zerg, you're in for a treat. Stalkers with lots of sentries are decent, especially if upgraded via the forge, and actually phoenixes are an OK counter if you match the muta numbers (the problem is actually trying to match their numbers, it's really not possible). Finally, psi storm is ok. There really is no singular counter to mutas as Protoss, sadly.

I would recommend a stalker/sentry mix, seems to work the best, along with having zealots for the large amount of speedlings he will send to try and kill them. Always have the shield up.

[Dalcyon]

Mass Stalkers with blink are pretty good against Mutas. You can escape very fast or chase mutas very quickly while in pursuit.

[Proletaria]

\

The answer is to push the zerg and end it before he can get mutas.


How on earth does a toss manage that feat? I've never played or watched a decent PvZ match that didn't go on for at least 30mins unless the zerg rolled over the toss with a 7-pool or roach pushed as he was teching and won the ramp game early. The protoss don't really have an early game strong enough to take down a zerg FE to say nothing of their initial base.

[Derslap]

stalkers and sentries and lol pheonix's


Are you using sentries shield? Do you actually have an equal amount of stalkers to mutas?

Yes and Yes.

It takes the same amount of a Air-To-Air unit to kill a Air to Air/Air to Ground unit with bouncing projectiles.

So yes, LOL Phoenixes.

[Obi]

Im really tired of hearing OMG theres no toss counter to mutas........... ITS CALLED THE FLIPPING PHOENIX 1 SINGLE PHOENIX CAN KILL 2 MUTALISKS AND STILL HAVE 1/2 OF ITS HP. STOP QQING ABOUT NOT HAVING A VIABLE AIR COUNTER WHEN YOU HAVENT EVEN TRIED TO BUY PHOENIXES. The simple mathematical equations of DPS, HP, Range, etc shows that a Phoenix is extremely superior to a mutalisk. Its like having a 9mm vs a friekin .44 magnum. Guess which one wins?

[Darkness]

How on earth does a toss manage that feat? I've never played or watched a decent PvZ match that didn't go on for at least 30mins unless the zerg rolled over the toss with a 7-pool or roach pushed as he was teching and won the ramp game.

Proxy 3 warpgate rush is still very viable, especially if they expo early. If you're going straight for robotics bay then no, I don't think you can push the zerg over in time. 90% of my PvZ games end within 10-15 minutes.

Im really tired of hearing OMG theres no toss counter to mutas........... ITS CALLED THE FLIPPING PHOENIX 1 SINGLE PHOENIX CAN KILL 2 MUTALISKS AND STILL HAVE 1/2 OF ITS HP.

That's only if the zerg can't micro

[Derslap]

ITS CALLED THE FLIPPING PHOENIX 1 SINGLE PHOENIX CAN KILL 2 MUTALISKS AND STILL HAVE 1/2 OF ITS HP. STOP QQING ABOUT NOT HAVING A VIABLE AIR COUNTER WHEN YOU HAVENT EVEN TRIED TO BUY PHOENIXES. The simple mathematical equations of DPS, HP, Range, etc shows that a Phoenix is extremely superior to a mutalisk. Its like having a 9mm vs a friekin .44 magnum. Guess which one wins?

If the Zerg player has a pickaxe in their skull, and lets me mass Phoenixes instead of loling and swapping to speedlings, sure.

[Proletaria]

Proxy 3 warpgate rush is still very viable, especially if they expo early. If you're going straight for robotics bay then no, I don't think you can push the zerg over in time. 90% of my PvZ games end within 10-15 minutes.





I havent had too much luck trying to proxy a zerg (at least, one that wasn't completely asleep at the switch... I have bagged a few who let my pylon their base with a scout and continue to FE and ignore it) who is a decent player, and with the nerf to warpgate tech time I kinda doubt you'd be in a position to take his FE unless he had failed to secure it at all.

[Krazytrumpet]

If my first rush on the zerg player fails, I usually just blitz straight to carriers. Mass carriers will usually do the trick, especially if you can spare the resources for at least 1 shield and 1 weapons upgrade.

[Obi]

That's only if the zerg can't micro


So are you assuming the Protoss player isnt smart enough to utilize the farther range that the phoenix has and micro along with the zerg microing? Phoenix still wins, even if it take a couple extra hits.

[Darkness]

I havent had too much luck trying to proxy a zerg (at least, one that wasn't completely asleep at the switch... I have bagged a few who let my pylon their base with a scout and continue to FE and ignore it) who is a decent player, and with the nerf to warpgate tech time I kinda doubt you'd be in a position to take his FE unless he had failed to secure it at all.

Well I already beat two zerg today with it (Platinum)

And no, I don't mean a pylon right inside their base, I mean one semi-concealed near their fast expo, so that travel time is cut in 2/3 for reinforcements.

[Obi]

If the Zerg player has a pickaxe in their skull, and lets me mass Phoenixes instead of loling and swapping to speedlings, sure.

We could go back and forth at this all day, you build 5-6 phoenixes, they will take on 10-15 mutas by themselves WITHOUT SUPPORT. Now you have a nice little army of stalkers or w/e on the ground to help. You win. Period.

[Derslap]

So are you assuming the Protoss player isnt smart enough to utilize the farther range that the phoenix has and micro along with the zerg microing? Phoenix still wins, even if it take a couple extra hits.

Except even if you kill their mutas, they'll just immediately counter you by switching to speedlings, because Pheonixes cost more, do less, and can't even beat mutas without considerable effort. Considering it's a air-to-air unit only, it should have some sort of use as a stronger counter than "Mass just as many of it as the Zerg has of Mutas"

They should bring back Overload.

[Proletaria]

If the Zerg player has a pickaxe in their skull, and lets me mass Phoenixes instead of loling and swapping to speedlings, sure.

This is the truth. It's a very, very sad moment when you believe you've countered a small muta force after all that scouting and preperation, only to have 30+ lings with adrenal run out afterward.

[Obi]

Except even if you kill their mutas, they'll just immediately counter you by switching to speedlings, because Pheonixes cost more, do less, and can't even beat mutas without considerable effort. Considering it's a air-to-air unit only, it should have some sort of use as a stronger counter than "Mass just as many of it as the Zerg has of Mutas"

They should bring back Overload.

Apparently you didnt read my previous posts. 1 phoenix kills 2 mutas AND LIVES! You can have less than 1/2 as many phoenix's as your opponent has muta's and kick his butt and then proceed to kill all of his overlords, or utilize graviton beam for support with your main army. Phoenix Rocks.

[Krazytrumpet]

We could go back and forth at this all day, you build 5-6 phoenixes, they will take on 10-15 mutas by themselves WITHOUT SUPPORT. Now you have a nice little army of stalkers or w/e on the ground to help. You win. Period.

What's the Phoenix cost and build time?

What's the Mutalisk cost and build time?

Yeah, I thought so.

[Proletaria]

Well I already beat two zerg today with it (Platinum)

And no, I don't mean a pylon right inside their base, I mean one semi-concealed near their fast expo, so that travel time is cut in 2/3 for reinforcements.

Interesting.. looks like i'll be proxy rushing in every matchup now. =/

[Obi]

What's the Phoenix cost and build time?

What's the Mutalisk cost and build time?

Yeah, I thought so.

Phoenixes cost 50 more minerals than a muta, AND DOMINATE THEM. They have around the same build time. Yeah no dur its obvious that its easier for the zerg to get mutalisks. Thats why the phoenix is a COUNTER UNIT/SUPPORT/HARRASSER. When you learn how to play SC talk to me.

[Proletaria]

Apparently you didnt read my previous posts. 1 phoenix kills 2 mutas AND LIVES! You can have less than 1/2 as many phoenix's as your opponent has muta's and kick his butt and then proceed to kill all of his overlords, or utilize graviton beam for support with your main army. Phoenix Rocks.

Lings aren't very ideal graviton targets. Generally, a FE'd zerg will have a lot more mutas than a toss will phoenix anyhow, and last but not least: stalkers last a matter of noano-seconds against lings in any kind of numbers. Plain and simple, a zerg can right-click with equal food mutas/lings to phoenix/stalkers (and as we've explained: you'll have a hard time keeping pace with a zerg in practice) and win unless the toss has much better micro.

It's not a foregone conclusion, but you'd be a fool not to realize that the MU is very tough on the toss player who is fighting up-hill the whole way.

[Obi]

Lings aren't very ideal graviton targets. Generally, a FE'd zerg will have a lot more mutas than a toss will phoenix anyhow, and last but not least: stalkers last a matter of noano-seconds against lings in any kind of numbers. Plain and simple, a zerg can right-click with equal food mutas/lings to phoenix/stalkers (and as we've explained: you'll have a hard time keeping pace with a zerg in practice) and win unless the toss has much better micro.

It's not a foregone conclusion, but you'd be a fool not to realize that the MU is very tough on the toss player who is fighting up-hill the whole way.

I do believe the counter to mass lings are colossus? So have 1-2 in ur base? And if you know how to micro your stalkers with blink then you should be able to take down ALOT of zerglings.

[Proletaria]

I do believe the counter to mass lings are colossus? So have 1-2 in ur base? And if you know how to micro your stalkers with blink then you should be able to take down ALOT of zerglings.

What happened to massing phoenixes?

[Derslap]

Phoenixes cost 50 more minerals than a muta, AND DOMINATE THEM. They have around the same build time. Yeah no dur its obvious that its easier for the zerg to get mutalisks. Thats why the phoenix is a COUNTER UNIT/SUPPORT/HARRASSER. When you learn how to play SC talk to me.

I've never seen anyone ever make a phoenix. Not even high-level players. They're that bad. They don't "Dominate", they're expensive. They're incredibly niche. They'd BETTER dominate mutas, because that's all they're doing. After that they're dead weight as the speedlings roll in.



I do believe the counter to mass lings are colossus? So have 1-2 in ur base? And if you know how to micro your stalkers with blink then you should be able to take down ALOT of zerglings.

How are you making a Robo, Stargate, Support bay, all while massing phoenixes?

[Obi]

I've never seen anyone ever make a phoenix. Not even high-level players. They're that bad. They don't "Dominate", they're expensive. They're incredibly niche. They'd BETTER dominate mutas, because that's all they're doing. After that they're dead weight as the speedlings roll in.



How are you making a Robo, Stargate, Support bay, all while massing phoenixes?

Well to get a colossus you only need 1 robo facility, and since your fighting zerg, if you dont have one already incase of the need for immortals, your an idiot. So building a bay while you build phoenixes isnt that hard. Learn to manage your money.

[Obi]

What happened to massing phoenixes?

If you cant build more than one type of unit at a time you deserve to lose.

[Derslap]

Well to get a colossus you only need 1 robo facility, and since your fighting zerg, if you dont have one already incase of the need for immortals, your an idiot. So building a bay while you build phoenixes isnt that hard. Learn to manage your money.

Have you ever played toss? You need to sink 200/200 for a support bay, then 300/200 per Colossi.

Stop trolling.

[Cirno]

Apparently the counter to mutas is to have infinite resources.

[Obi]

Have you ever played toss? You need to sink 200/200 for a support bay, then 300/200 per Colossi.

Stop trolling.

yeah just did and rickrolled my opponent and i built multiple phoenixes. GRAVITON BEAMING TANKS ftw. Learn your units and quit begging for blizz to make every unit as simple as attack move win.

[Obi]

Apparently the counter to mutas is to have infinite resources.

if you properly expand you should have the appropriate resources.

[Derslap]

yeah just did and rickrolled my opponent and i built multiple phoenixes. GRAVITON BEAMING TANKS ftw. Learn your units and quit begging for blizz to make every unit as simple as attack move win.


Was that before or after you got rocked by Marines?

Edit: This is also 1v1 PvZ.

[Obi]

Was that before or after you got rocked by Marines?

Edit: This is also 1v1 PvZ.

What part of I rickrolled my opponent do you not understand?

[Stratosspear]

stalkers and sentries and lol pheonix's


Are you using sentries shield? Do you actually have an equal amount of stalkers to mutas?

This is not a valid answer to the problem. The entire concept of the Zerg race is them having more units than you. Between the fact that Zerg units produce fast and cheap and the other two race's units produce relatively slower/more expensively/take up more food means that this is just a bad answer.

If the Zerg gets to Mutalisks, you're really more or less screwed unless you can get a LOT of Stalkers/Phoenixes, and maybe some Templar. The problem is getting into that late mid-game stage where you can get that kind of economy going.

[Krazytrumpet]

Phoenixes cost 50 more minerals than a muta, AND DOMINATE THEM. They have around the same build time. Yeah no dur its obvious that its easier for the zerg to get mutalisks. Thats why the phoenix is a COUNTER UNIT/SUPPORT/HARRASSER. When you learn how to play SC talk to me.
When you learn how to not be a complete retard, come back and talk to me.

[Cottons]

Apparently you didnt read my previous posts. 1 phoenix kills 2 mutas AND LIVES! You can have less than 1/2 as many phoenix's as your opponent has muta's and kick his butt and then proceed to kill all of his overlords, or utilize graviton beam for support with your main army. Phoenix Rocks.

Apparently you have a limited understanding of starcraft units. While this may be true 1v2, in a larger battle the mutalisk ability to bounce attacks comes into play, the more mutas the more bounce, while more phoenixs have no additional advantage, even if the 2:1 ratio stays the same the advantage goes to the muta, not to mention it can also attack ground.

[Fael]

If the Zerg player has a pickaxe in their skull, and lets me mass Phoenixes instead of loling and swapping to speedlings, sure.

Zealots will counter zerglings cost for cost. Also, this will give you free reign to harass and kill overlords and queens, so it's unlikely the zerg will want to switch to lings.

[AKIRA]

Zealots will counter zerglings cost for cost. Also, this will give you free reign to harass and kill overlords and queens, so it's unlikely the zerg will want to switch to lings.

4 zerglings will kill a zealot if they're all on them.

That is non-upgraded. It will be that way EVERY time.

A speedling with increased attack speed and 2-3 can take out a zealot. So, no, zealots are not a late game counter to zergling rushes. Sentries and stalkers (or colossi) at the ramp FFing the entrance to prevent them entry while they get murderd works, but not zealots. And those options are VERY heavy on gas. And with the speed upgrade they can retreat quiclky, wait for the FFs to go down and come back, doing this until the sentries are out of power. With the cost of zerglings vs the cost of those units, it is a BIG advantage for the zerg.

I have had some luck with high templar, but it is pretty uncommon to really kill much with it unless you have 5 or 6 templar, and that's a ton of gas.

And YES phoenixes are a hard counter to mutas. Yes they will dominate. However, they are only good against zerg air units. Once they switch to land units (such as hydras, and a good player will) the phoenixes will get eaten alive and they can just send in mutas (or dominate with hydras as you've put all your resources into building phoenixes).

Zerg can also significantly outproduce the protoss. With a queen and three hatcheries it'll just be a matter of time, as they can (as long as they have the resources) overwhelm (and continue to overwhelm) the phoenixes. If given equal resources the zerg will eventually win, and with the protoss stuck making units defensively they are going to get screwed in the end.

The problem is that phoenixes are only good for countering air, and to have them means you are missing something else. 2 colossi will not defeat 20 hydras. 2 templar do not have enough power to do enough psi storms to kill 20 hydras. Stalkers will be answered by superlings.

And that is the problem. You either get to stop their air rush or their land rush, but currently the way the game is, you don't get to do both. And the only times that protoss really do good against zerg is when we are rushing them and NOT giving them an opportunity to build. At the same time, however, protoss really only shines when they've had a chance to progress.

I'd say a solution would be to buff photon cannons, but that would only encourage proxy cannon rushes. You could decrease the cost of phoenixes and build time to allow them to be a viable on the spot counter for air units, but then you'd have them just hanging around and it would COMPLETELY destroy the muta rush - which should be valid if played right, but not an IWIN button.

Giving either the colossus or immortal a weaker, but usable air attack would help, as you could prepare for a major ground rush, but would not be totally screwed if you get muta rushed, and could have time to build and counter, rather than them just destroying your pylons and stargates before you can get more than two out. This (in my opinion) is probably for the best and wouldn't effect terran very much as a lot of their air units are more sturdy and/or have abilities to help them out.

Another option is to give the phoenix a weak ground attack so that when they switch to land units the phoenix is not a wasted unit that you wish you had just built an equal value in cannons with and prepared for land rushes.

Again, muta vs phoenix is going to result in a phoenix winning. But you just don't have a viable way to produce them in a quantity big enough to continue to dominate the skies for very long.

[Azureflames]

4 zerglings will kill a zealot if they're all on them.

That is non-upgraded. It will be that way EVERY time.


No it won't, even with speed it's not possible to fully surround Zealots in a fight, especially if it's near a base/choke. Sure 4 zerglings will beat 1 zealot, but 8 zealots can beat 32 zerglings(micro dependent obv).


A speedling with increased attack speed and 2-3 can take out a zealot. So, no, zealots are not a late game counter to zergling rushes.

What? Okay, and a couple storms will kill every single zergling he has while only damaging your Zealots, which are mostly just for blocking in the first place.


Sentries and stalkers (or colossi) at the ramp FFing the entrance to prevent them entry while they get murderd works, but not zealots. And those options are VERY heavy on gas. And with the speed upgrade they can retreat quiclky, wait for the FFs to go down and come back, doing this until the sentries are out of power. With the cost of zerglings vs the cost of those units, it is a BIG advantage for the zerg.

Collos completely destroy zerglings with just a handful of zealots being able to block. Collos completely crush hydras and roaches as well.


I have had some luck with high templar, but it is pretty uncommon to really kill much with it unless you have 5 or 6 templar, and that's a ton of gas.

Force his mutas to keep moving, while damaging them, and have your faster, high damage, longer range phoenixes picking them off. If you are talking about hydras(which are incredibly slow compared to SC when off creep) you should just be killing them. Lings die in 2 ticks so w/e.

And YES phoenixes are a hard counter to mutas. Yes they will dominate. However, they are only good against zerg air units. Once they switch to land units (such as hydras, and a good player will) the phoenixes will get eaten alive and they can just send in mutas (or dominate with hydras as you've put all your resources into building phoenixes).

Use your phoenix's to harass. If you have dominated the air use them like you would use mutas to harass. Lift off queens and kill them(big deal), kill overlords, lift drones and kill them. You're faster than mutas so your harass should be just as good if not better. Lift off small amounts of hydras and kill them. They are light armor so they get crushed.
Zerg can also significantly outproduce the protoss. With a queen and three hatcheries it'll just be a matter of time, as they can (as long as they have the resources) overwhelm (and continue to overwhelm) the phoenixes. If given equal resources the zerg will eventually win, and with the protoss stuck making units defensively they are going to get screwed in the end.

The problem is that phoenixes are only good for countering air, and to have them means you are missing something else. 2 colossi will not defeat 20 hydras. 2 templar do not have enough power to do enough psi storms to kill 20 hydras. Stalkers will be answered by superlings.

20 hydras is 2000 minerals 1000 vespane and 40 supply. 2 collos with 14ish zealots(with charge) would completely crush 20 hydras. Less cost, less supply(i think), similar tech.

And that is the problem. You either get to stop their air rush or their land rush, but currently the way the game is, you don't get to do both. And the only times that protoss really do good against zerg is when we are rushing them and NOT giving them an opportunity to build. At the same time, however, protoss really only shines when they've had a chance to progress.

Sounds like you're bad at tech swapping.

I'd say a solution would be to buff photon cannons, but that would only encourage proxy cannon rushes. You could decrease the cost of phoenixes and build time to allow them to be a viable on the spot counter for air units, but then you'd have them just hanging around and it would COMPLETELY destroy the muta rush - which should be valid if played right, but not an IWIN button.

Mutas are the same as they were in SC1, cannons have +25shield/+25hp. They work pretty well to protect your miners, some micro and you can push them away from gateways too.

Giving either the colossus or immortal a weaker, but usable air attack would help, as you could prepare for a major ground rush, but would not be totally screwed if you get muta rushed, and could have time to build and counter, rather than them just destroying your pylons and stargates before you can get more than two out. This (in my opinion) is probably for the best and wouldn't effect terran very much as a lot of their air units are more sturdy and/or have abilities to help them out.

Sounds like you want to be able to make a ground army without scouting his base then be able to hold off air units that you didn't prepare for.
[quote]
Another option is to give the phoenix a w

[AKIRA]

As far as the zerglings, I was meaning a cost comparison. If out in the open, 4 zerglings WILL kill a zealot. If they're blocking your base and the hydras don't completely annihilate them, the roaches will.

Colossi WILL crush massive bio units. However, this only works if they stay alive. Hydras are pretty good at taking them down if there are enough of them, and they can produce hydras MUCH quicker than you can produce colossi.

I don't want a way to not have to scout. I want a way to where I'm building up expecting on thing, see the spire go up, and have enough time to react. Currently if you are expecting a land force, you probably don't have any phoenixes built, and if you're planning on going in on land (aka, not a carrier rush) then you will not have any AA to speak of other than stalkers. Stalkers are nice, but they are not a good mass unit as they do not clump well. Not to mention if you're trying to blink up a cliff half get stuck down below.

That is why I said "weak" attack. I don't want something that will dominate the mutalisk or any air unit. I want a unit that isn't completely useless if they decide to change course. So they can't get the hydras in, they build a spire and spam mutas. You're now screwed. So they went muta and you had phoenixes ready, now they build hydras and you are screwed. Two colossi is NOT an acceptable answer. Trust me, I've tried. Again, psi storm WORKS but only for so long, and it won't kill the units, it only weakens them. Try it on a fully upgraded roach too - it doesn't work. They literally, above ground, regen faster than the psi storm hits them. Roaches in front, hydras in back, destroy colossi first, and you win. The protoss cannot produce fast enough to keep up with the number of units you're putting out, and you can produce anything from the same building, so you just have to mass one building to build anything.

It isn't that there are not effective counters to each of the given zerg strategies. It is that currently you either choose to defend against air, or you choose to defend against land and if you guess wrong, scout wrong, or they decide to change their mind after a strategy hasn't worked, you're boned. Which, again, is why I propose adding a weak air or ground attack so that you are not completely left out to dry and you can have SOME time to react.

As it stands, the reaction time for a zerg player to change strats is immediate, and for a protoss player it takes a lot longer and by the time they HAVE changed, the zerg can just switch back. Even carriers have a huge weakness in that when single targeted they are taken out quickly. Void rays are useless against mass units and most actual good ideas require energy from the unit which is typically quickly out of if there is a mass of units (high templar, sentries)

If the phoenix was built faster, or you could defend against mutas while they were being built it would be ok. The zerg can quickly react to and counter whatever you are doing, and that is great, but the protoss make choices in their trees and once down that road it is expensive and time consuming to change.

[Azureflames]

As far as the zerglings, I was meaning a cost comparison. If out in the open, 4 zerglings WILL kill a zealot. If they're blocking your base and the hydras don't completely annihilate them, the roaches will.

Except that your stalkers will be killing the roaches. Much longer range. Hydra tech is actually kinda difficult to get and still be able to make several hydra. You need a lot of resources and a bit of time. If they rush straight hydra you should no doubt be able to kill them. If he has a lot of them you probably should have already had 1 expansion.

Colossi WILL crush massive bio units. However, this only works if they stay alive. Hydras are pretty good at taking them down if there are enough of them, and they can produce hydras MUCH quicker than you can produce colossi.

Collos move faster than hydras off creep. Not to mention Collos should immediately get the range upgrade. Range 9 is soo insane. It's common to have Collos with 30+ kills.

I don't want a way to not have to scout. I want a way to where I'm building up expecting on thing, see the spire go up, and have enough time to react. Currently if you are expecting a land force, you probably don't have any phoenixes built, and if you're planning on going in on land (aka, not a carrier rush) then you will not have any AA to speak of other than stalkers. Stalkers are nice, but they are not a good mass unit as they do not clump well. Not to mention if you're trying to blink up a cliff half get stuck down below.

The thing is, it takes a lot of resources to pump out a decent number of mutas. You should be able to overpower his army because he's saving for mutas, or you should be able to expand and build cannons to protect, or you can attack him and force him to spend his resources so that he can't just pump out a bunch of mutas as soon as the spire finishes. Spire build time is pretty long, 100 seconds. If you have only 3 warp gates you can get 27 units out(assuming resources and no chrono) by the time mutas are at your base. In your general army you should have at least a few units that can hit air anyway. You don't have to make Phoenix's. Stalkers are a fine mass unit. And by mass unit I don't mean you make 95% of your army stalkers, i mean 60-70% of your army is some sort of stalker+sentry mix.

That is why I said "weak" attack. I don't want something that will dominate the mutalisk or any air unit. I want a unit that isn't completely useless if they decide to change course. So they can't get the hydras in, they build a spire and spam mutas. You're now screwed. So they went muta and you had phoenixes ready, now they build hydras and you are screwed. Two colossi is NOT an acceptable answer. Trust me, I've tried. Again, psi storm WORKS but only for so long, and it won't kill the units, it only weakens them. Try it on a fully upgraded roach too - it doesn't work. They literally, above ground, regen faster than the psi storm hits them. Roaches in front, hydras in back, destroy colossi first, and you win. The protoss cannot produce fast enough to keep up with the number of units you're putting out, and you can produce anything from the same building, so you just have to mass one building to build anything.
1 swath of a Collos beams takes over 50% of a hydras hp, and you'll probably hit 4 hydras with 1 beam. 2-3 collos should be able to hold off a sizable hydra army. You're way wrong about the roach regen. They regen like 2.5hp per second or something about ground. Burrowed their regen is insane, like 20hp/s. It sounds to me like you keep getting into games where the zerg has A LOT more expansions than you(or have had them way longer than you). Maybe you need to get better at expanding. You should post some replays.

It isn't that there are not effective counters to each of the given zerg strategies. It is that currently you either choose to defend against air, or you choose to defend against land and if you guess wrong, scout wrong, or they decide to change their mind after a strategy hasn't worked, you're boned. Which, again, is why I propose adding a weak air or ground attack so that you are not completely left out to dry and you can have SOME time to react.

I don't understand. No matter what units a Zerg player goes, ground or air, you should always have some stalkers+sentries. Even if he is going mass lings, you should be going zeal+sentries(maybe even a few stalkers). An early +1weapon upgrade will completely trivialize any mass ling strategy. The sentry shield really is extremely powerful against mutas.

[Azureflames]

As it stands, the reaction time for a zerg player to change strats is immediate, and for a protoss player it takes a lot longer and by the time they HAVE changed, the zerg can just switch back. Even carriers have a huge weakness in that when single targeted they are taken out quickly. Void rays are useless against mass units and most actual good ideas require energy from the unit which is typically quickly out of if there is a mass of units (high templar, sentries)

If the phoenix was built faster, or you could defend against mutas while they were being built it would be ok. The zerg can quickly react to and counter whatever you are doing, and that is great, but the protoss make choices in their trees and once down that road it is expensive and time consuming to change.

It doesn't take that much longer for protoss with warpgates/chrono. If a Zerg player starts and tech and then you start a tech yeah he's going to put out an army way before you. Don't expect to counter mutas with Phoenix's if you start your Stargate after he starts his spire. I'm sorry, it can never be that way or zerg will never be able to use Mutas against toss ever.

The biggest problem is that so many toss tech straight to robo before even scouting the Zerg player. Also, a lot of the time toss overreact when they see a roach warren so they immediately make a robo to start pumping out immortals even though I'm about to start a spire. That roach warren was just for protection in case you start to push early. You have no idea how many games I've played where I scout the toss base and he has a robo and immortals and all i ever made was lings into mutas. One game in particular, I flew my mutas into his base and he had a robo with 2 immortals out. You know what happened when my 6 mutas and killed his 3 sentries? "GG, make a unit that has a counter"

[Alexl]

How on earth does a toss manage that feat? I've never played or watched a decent PvZ match that didn't go on for at least 30mins unless the zerg rolled over the toss with a 7-pool or roach pushed as he was teching and won the ramp game early. The protoss don't really have an early game strong enough to take down a zerg FE to say nothing of their initial base.

I'm not sure if someone has answered your question already because I'm too lazy to read anymore of this stuff.
Against zerg this is a basic strategy for pushing into their base and wrecking them.

1. Get maybe a few zealots, the amount depends on how well you manage your mineral to gas ratio.
2. Start pumping out stalkers and a few sentries later on, and get multiple gateways while you are building up
3. This will be your primary focus while you hold off the roaches. Tech to robotics facility as soon as possible. Two assimilators is viable. Pump out an observer right away. Scout.

Next you want to be pumping out immortals with chrono boost. With 1-2 immortals you can push but make sure to scout with your observer first. These things are massive tanks, especially combined with a sentry. Send these guys in and micro them and you should do fine.

You should also consider taking a probe or a shuttle to warp in more troops during the push. I would spend any left over energy chrono boosting and warping in units I need mid battle with a pylon or shuttle. Keep in mind that sentries don't spawn with enough energy to do anything so think ahead and micro well.

Yes, it is possible for him to have mutalisk, but you should have gotten more than enough stalkers to focus fire them if they get in range. Don't tunnel vision and attack the mutalisk in a way that your chasing and getting ripped apart. However, also consider that if he has mutalisks left at the end and you only have immortals you might be screwed.

If he is getting mass hydralisk, chrono boost and pump out a collosus. You have an observer and sentries so it should be very difficult for him to take our your collosus while you massacre him. If he tries to focus fire it simply move it back while your army punishes him if he doesn't react quickly.

There's a lot more to add but I think I've written a little too much already.
This is also a basic strategy don't expect it to work all the time.

[Jokebook]

you build 5-6 phoenixes, they will take on 10-15 mutas by themselves WITHOUT SUPPORT.

This must be embellishment to try to get a point across?

Mutas are so good because they hit land and air so the Zerg's army of Mutas is much more flexible that the Protoss. If you build a lot of Phoenixs it tends to weaken your ground army a bit because their lack of hitting ground. The grav beam is nice, however, its pretty situational.

[Phayze]

Yes and Yes.

It takes the same amount of a Air-To-Air unit to kill a Air to Air/Air to Ground unit with bouncing projectiles.

So yes, LOL Phoenixes.

Yes, when an air superiority unit, Actually doesnt have near air superiority, it doesnt work.

I believe pheonix`s need some sort of splash damage similar to corsairs. As it stands, muta blob desotroys pheonix blob.

[Azureflames]

Yes, when an air superiority unit, Actually doesnt have near air superiority, it doesnt work.

I believe pheonix`s need some sort of splash damage similar to corsairs. As it stands, muta blob desotroys pheonix blob.

If you do that you'd have to reduce Phoenix damage versus mutas from 20 single target to 2.5 splash, just like corsairs (not to mention shorten their range, basically making them an attack-move unit instead of a finesse one).

Anyway, Phoenix's should be used to keep mutas numbers small or as additional high-dps units to target the mutas once a major fight has started. Also very useful to disable/kill infestors. You can very easily kill an early muta swarm and then force a hydra tech swap. If you let him build up a big army of mutas it's your fault for turtling against a zerg player.

[Nan]

For me, i found out that scouting works the best,
Phoenix kinda suck unless u can surprise him and start harrasing overloard and killing the Queen

If they go Roaches to Mutas which what normally everyone does
Normally i can beat roaches with sentries and zealots and maybe 2 stalckers,
after defeding if i c him building a spire i just try to go all out with immortals zealots stalkers and sentries before he can finish it
i always try to bring a probe to make a proxy pylon or if i have the minerals and time warp prism

If hes goes directly to mutas, i just try to rush him with zealots sentries and stalkers

Late game i havent been able to defeat mass mutas to much dmg

High templars might work but if they micro it right it won

[Mentlegen]

Yes, when an air superiority unit, Actually doesnt have near air superiority, it doesnt work.

I believe pheonix`s need some sort of splash damage similar to corsairs. As it stands, muta blob desotroys pheonix blob.

Add overload ability to pheonix

Add the upgrade research to the fleet beacon. There phoenix air superiority fighter.

[Kaiba]

Except even if you kill their mutas, they'll just immediately counter you by switching to speedlings, because Pheonixes cost more, do less, and can't even beat mutas without considerable effort. Considering it's a air-to-air unit only, it should have some sort of use as a stronger counter than "Mass just as many of it as the Zerg has of Mutas"

They should bring back Overload.

Build 1 or 2 collosus and there ya go, 1 colossus can take care of atleast half of the lings before it dies

[Capsdual]

Just mass carriers if you can and turtle.