If all maps need narrow chokes for balance...

[engineer]

...it will be a shame.

Blizz, please give us maps that either have wide chokes, or multiple unblocked chokes, or something to open bases up. We need to see if this game is balanced for these types of maps. It would put a serious damper on map design if we need every base to have a single narrow choke in order to balance the early game.

[Comtrav]

Yes, please.

[Gemini]

Scrap station, Twilight fortress, Kulas Ravine have wider than normal entrances. Also Kulas Ravine doesn't have high ground starting.

I think those are the names.

[Moorehouse]

Good luck to terran then.

[Primoris]

Good luck to terran then.

this. So many games i have a superior force march up to my wall and i'm like "oh god i hope they don't push it" and they'll turn around while under fire from my 6 or so marines.

[Chaosdragoon]

I agree, I don't enjoy how all maps are the same and generally, you can't surprise people with attacks because there is only 1, 2 entrances It doesn't make very good map design to be honest. In SC1 I only know of a few maps that did this.

[engineer]

Good luck to terran then.

That's the point. I play terran. The whole point of the beta is to find imbalances while they can be fixed racially. If they don't do this in the beta, then they can't make racial adjustments, and we'll be locked into the narrow choke.

edit: fixed a typo.

[engineer]

Scrap station, Twilight fortress, Kulas Ravine have wider than normal entrances. Also Kulas Ravine doesn't have high ground starting.

I think those are the names.

Kulas Ravine's opening is normal sized. I can block it off with 2 SD's and a rax, same as always. You're right that scrap station is bigger, but the initial base distance is so big that I can still wall it off before a rush comes. It only takes 1 extra SD.

Twilight fortress is a bigger choke, but that's a 2v2 map, so balance is just different in general.

[Cyrus]

Remember Killing Fields in SC1?

[Nephrahim]

I agree, I don't enjoy how all maps are the same and generally, you can't surprise people with attacks because there is only 1, 2 entrances It doesn't make very good map design to be honest. In SC1 I only know of a few maps that did this.

Reapers are there for a reason, even if people have stopped using them.

Anyway, the original SC had ramps to most bases too, so it's not that strange.

[Slym]

I think what they need are more destructible rocks or VERY roundabout routes ,so that terran can't be bumrushed but there are more than 1 way into their base.

[Eloderung]

Good luck to terran then.

Terran in SC1 could survive without a narrow ramp blocking their base in early game.

Besides, every race is dependant on narrow ramps now to survive rushes.

Protoss players use zealots and a probe to block or funnel units in on their ramp, and block off their ramp partially.

Zerg will do likewise with zerglings.

Terran wall up as usual.

This isn't a terran-only issues. No races are balanced to survive without a choke point right now. This is a big departure from SCI, which results from one problem: static defense being worthless in SC2 compared to SCI early game.

RIP map variety and strategy. Let's bow down to our base-on-plateau-with-narrow-ramp map overlords for the rest of eternity in SC2.

[Comtrav]

I'm a Terran player, and I hate that my early game is balanced around a wall-in on the choke. I'm really, really tempted to switch to a race that allows a more aggressive early game.

[Dreyo]

My favorite map back in the day was Untamed Wilds, precisely because it had eight unique starting locations with advantages and disadvantages to each. No game was the same there, especially not large-scale FFA, 2v2v2v2, 3v3 and 4v4. Two were islands, with no ground path to the outside. Three were on ledges with ramps going down. Two had no ledges or ramps, but one of those had interesting terrain nearby to create not-quite-chokes. The other one was completely exposed, but right next to an expansion so you effectively created one large base instead of "main plus expansion. The last one had a raised ledge with ramps surrounding it, but itself was lowered back down again. Not within tank range of the starting area, but still.

It made for the most fun FFA games of my entire time playing SC1. Bring back unique, non-symmetric maps please. At this point I honestly couldn't tell you the difference between any of the current 1v1 maps - they're all the same.

[engineer]

Reapers are there for a reason, even if people have stopped using them.

Anyway, the original SC had ramps to most bases too, so it's not that strange.

Most SC1 maps had ramps because in the end, they were needed for balance. The point is, map balance (e.g. ramps) is the last resort, after all other forms of balance have failed. Racial balance is preferable to map balance while it's an option, because it allows for a wider variety of maps.

The ideally balanced game would be balanced on any (fair) map. This is what we should shoot for while we have the opportunity. Once that opportunity is gone, we'll use ramps if we need them, but we should at least be able to test that while we're in beta, the testing phase.

[Joneleth]

/signed but there's enough noods wailing over Desert Oasis or Twilight Fortress right now, imagine the torment upon those simple minds if they had something as different as multiple wide entrances to manage.

Also, island maps, thanks.

[Wyrd]

Hmm, as terran I am a bit interested in this idea. I screwed up blocking a ramp yesterday and got beaten pretty handily by just a dozen zeglings, which are never a problem usually. I suppose it wouldn't be a problem if I had to go marines as quick as possible, but then again, lings come out pretty fast.

As it is, the only race I could see pulling off no ramps are zerg, due to being able to pump out units fastest. Ramps seem to have the largest effect in the first 5 minutes or so stave off rushes, after that, I think you could do without them. So its an issue of giving reliable options for those first couple minutes that don't boil down to building as many initial units as possible as fast as possible every game.

[Fors]

My favorite map back in the day was Untamed Wilds, precisely because it had eight unique starting locations with advantages and disadvantages to each. No game was the same there, especially not large-scale FFA, 2v2v2v2, 3v3 and 4v4. Two were islands, with no ground path to the outside. Three were on ledges with ramps going down. Two had no ledges or ramps, but one of those had interesting terrain nearby to create not-quite-chokes. The other one was completely exposed, but right next to an expansion so you effectively created one large base instead of "main plus expansion. The last one had a raised ledge with ramps surrounding it, but itself was lowered back down again. Not within tank range of the starting area, but still.

It made for the most fun FFA games of my entire time playing SC1. Bring back unique, non-symmetric maps please. At this point I honestly couldn't tell you the difference between any of the current 1v1 maps - they're all the same.

Wow, this sounds amazing! *note to self: make this map when the editor comes out*

[Mentlegen]

Zerg will do likewise with zerglings.



Don't think zerg ling block their choke when zealots can take on nearly 4 of them per zealot and marines can just outrange them. If you're using lings you want them to enter your base so you can use creep speed to surround them before they can retreat.

[Fldsjflsdjfa]

This is part of the reason I'm getting a bit bored only a few days in. SC2 is fun and exciting, but the maps feel repetitive.

[Lazz]

This is exactly how it is for SC1. Unless you plan on doing something about Speedling run-by, I'm not sure how one can seriously change this.

[Fodder]

I say that Blizzard makes static defenses useful. This would fix most of the ramp problems and force people to adapt.

Also, I say that Blizzard just adds a map with no ramps or chokes and sees what happenes. People can be surprisingly innovative when the need arises. Maybe people were learn to play without ramps.

[Wat]

every good korean proleage map is balanced around a ramp or narrow choke in sc1

any map worth playing on sc1 has a narrow choke in the main you can block off somewhat easily




honestly i dont know why people are crying about this now, narrow chokes have been needed for balance for years in starcraft and i doubt it will ever be otherwise

[Wat]

Don't think zerg ling block their choke when zealots can take on nearly 4 of them per zealot and marines can just outrange them. If you're using lings you want them to enter your base so you can use creep speed to surround them before they can retreat.hes talking about zvz : |

[Drayen]

I think the design that terran absolutely require a narrow choke with a ramp is pretty stupid to be honest... Why should terran need this and the other races have to deal with it?

[Apollo]

We're only seeing a handful of the maps that will ship. I don't pretend to know how Blizz have decided to release content for the beta, but I'd guess we'll see a wider variety of maps in a future beta push (and at the very least at release).

That said, it could be that the game is currently balanced around having narrow chokes. Also remember, we're only seeing 1v1, 2v2, and 4 player maps at this point.

[Stuff]

Problem with offering wide open spaces for maps with little to no chokes is that this promotes the rush in a game where rushing is already pretty damn powerful compared to how effective it was in Brood War.

Without efficient base access control, a single one or two unit rush can literally decide a match if the map is small enough.

Rushing should be a viable strategy, sure.. but it shouldn't be "do it or lose to it". With ramps and chokes allowing players to control access into their base with either a wall-in, a spike crawler, or a few zealots, you are essentially offering a choice:

A player can scout, and if he sees his opponent attempting to tech or FE WITHOUT controlling base access, you can probably rush and crush him.

If he DOES wall in to control base access, he is essentially giving you map control to answer his tech or FE with a hi-yield FE (which is absolutely devastating).

On a wide-open map.. teching or trying to FE and getting spotted would be nigh unto suicidal due to being so exposed to a rush.

[engineer]

every good korean proleage map is balanced around a ramp or narrow choke in sc1

any map worth playing on sc1 has a narrow choke in the main you can block off somewhat easily




honestly i dont know why people are crying about this now, narrow chokes have been needed for balance for years in starcraft and i doubt it will ever be otherwise

Nobody's crying about it. SC1 was SC1, and it was a wonderful game, but it had its drawbacks. Now we are in the beta for SC2, and we have the opportunity to address some of the drawbacks of SC1. Requiring a narrow choke for a balanced map was a drawback because it forced mapmakers into the same starting design.

Think of mapmaking as a game. To make an analogy to SC2, requiring every map to have a choke is like requiring every terran to open with double rax. It's not the end of the world, but it limits your options.

The point is, now is the time that Blizzard can at least test this out. If they try it, and it's unbalanced, and they decide that they cannot address the issue, then fine. But they haven't even tried it, at least not in the beta.

[Wat]

Nobody's crying about it. SC1 was SC1, and it was a wonderful game, but it had its drawbacks. Now we are in the beta for SC2, and we have the opportunity to address some of the drawbacks of SC1. Requiring a narrow choke for a balanced map was a drawback because it forced mapmakers into the same starting design.

Think of mapmaking as a game. To make an analogy to SC2, requiring every map to have a choke is like requiring every terran to open with double rax. It's not the end of the world, but it limits your options.

The point is, now is the time that Blizzard can at least test this out. If they try it, and it's unbalanced, and they decide that they cannot address the issue, then fine. But they haven't even tried it, at least not in the beta.as far as im concerned theres nothing wrong at all with having chokepoints at your base entrance

in fact i like it

[Fldsjflsdjfa]

Yup, this is beta, give us more map variety to test when the next batch of maps comes out.

[engineer]

Problem with offering wide open spaces for maps with little to no chokes is that this promotes the rush in a game where rushing is already pretty damn powerful compared to how effective it was in Brood War.

...

On a wide-open map.. teching or trying to FE and getting spotted would be nigh unto suicidal due to being so exposed to a rush.

Maybe. Probably. But not definitely. Perhaps, with a little bit of added strength to base defense, these strategies would not be suicide on an open map.

I understand that blizz wants to keep base defense weak to prevent turtling, but in reality, even that design choice is centered around narrow chokes; turtling would not be so easy if chokes were bigger. Also, I'm sure there are clever ways to strengthen base defense for the early game while leaving it weak in the midgame.

Keep in mind that I'm not proposing that we make turtle-worthy base defense. I don't think teching or FE should be easy on an open map. It just has to be possible. I'm guessing it would not actually take a huge buff to make this happen, if it's even needed at all.

[engineer]

as far as im concerned theres nothing wrong at all with having chokepoints at your base entrance

in fact i like it

That's fine. If more map styles are viable, you'd still have the option to select those maps which you prefer. I'm not saying that maps with narrow chokes shouldn't be a choice. I'm just saying they shouldn't be the only choice.

The point is, I don't think adding open maps would cheapen the choke maps. I think you'd just have different play styles for each. And with the map selection tool on the ladder, you could choose to play only on a certain style, if that's what you prefer.

[Namhcir]

Scrap station, Twilight fortress, Kulas Ravine have wider than normal entrances. Also Kulas Ravine doesn't have high ground starting.

I think those are the names.

this, kulas ravine is AMAZING for rushes, you simply cannot tech on this map if you want to survive, ive made so many people cry for just making triple rax and pushing on this map, any rush on this map is simply amplified due to no high ground on defense, meaning you cant get a ton of free shots off, so if your army is weaker and you are teching, you just lose lol

[Kevin]

To be honest I like the ramp system, if someone bunkers up inside their first base just make sure they can't expand and bleed them dry of resources. I've won many games by controlling the maps resources not allowing said person to get the minerals needed to continue playing. Only a few maps have the multiple-ramp entrance (which acts as an expansion) and really EVERYONE has the same ramps and can choose to bunker up as well. Terran pretty well requires it to be done to survive a rush, why do you think they make supply depots drop into the ground? Because they knew already this was the way they wanted Terrans to be balanced out early game.

Show me a Terran player than can 100% of the time beat a competent player without blocking the ramp and I'll show you a liar. In fact the only race I don't block the ramp with is Zerg, with Protoss I often choose to use Cannons to block myself in, once I feel I have enough units I then destroy a cannon.

End of the line is every race has the ability to block or filter at the ramp, even Zerg. If you are not smart enough to use units that can scale cliffs.... crawl under units to get into the base unseen .... or simply fly in you're plain and simple stupid.

[Lafayette]

Leaving balance aside, would it not be better for the simple health of the game to offer more variety? Having genuinely different map designs that don't all prominently feature narrow chokes would lead to less stagnant strategy and more fun in the long term. As far as top-level tourney balance goes, well, they can pick and choose available maps. The entire ladder game doesn't have to be so cut and dried.

[Keir]

this. So many games i have a superior force march up to my wall and i'm like "oh god i hope they don't push it" and they'll turn around while under fire from my 6 or so marines.

oh no!!! a possible way to test and fix some imbalances in a BETA!! I sure hope there are no maps that have no choke because I would hate to see my BETA record go sour!!

[Horizon]

I'm fine with some maps having narrow chokes. But every map having narrow chokes greatly reduces the variety of possible maps.

I don't think it's good design to have SC2's early game hamstrung by having to balance it around narrow chokes for the foreseeable future.

[Dreyo]

Untamed Wilds, for those who are curious:


Some battles are fought over strategically located space platforms to increase the military's tactical position. Others are matters of honor to be settled on ancient Protoss proving grounds. Most encounters, however, occur by mere chance in the wilderness of the galaxy. In these skirmishes, battlefield intelligence can be scarce and fate does not always provide each combatant with equally defensible terrain. In the wild you can quickly find yourself in a situation that requires you to adapt or be destroyed.


http://classic.battle.net/scc/OS/0199.shtml

http://classic.battle.net/images/battle/scc/LP/0199/uw.jpg

[Broloc]

every good korean proleage map is balanced around a ramp or narrow choke in sc1

any map worth playing on sc1 has a narrow choke in the main you can block off somewhat easily




honestly i dont know why people are crying about this now, narrow chokes have been needed for balance for years in starcraft and i doubt it will ever be otherwise

This isn't Korea nor SC1.

[Bonjwa]

lol no

[Bibdy]

Isn't this why Marauders have the snare? So, you're saying they don't need it, if they can just hide behind a wall of buildings? I figured this was the only logical reason for Marauders snaring Light armoured units. If all maps are designed around the building wall, what the heck do they need it for?

[Crimson]

marauders have snare because terran has no counter to baneling other then kiting them across the map, and if you dont kite zealots you die as well.

[Rackdude]

This is part of the reason I'm getting a bit bored only a few days in. SC2 is fun and exciting, but the maps feel repetitive.

This is why I am posting about map rotation. Kespa did this part right. I don't think they did everything right, but they sure had great maps and were constantly changing the map pool.

Part of the balance really is the need for static defense to get buffed. Then FEs, varied strategies, and real hurrassment would be useful/necessary.

[sc2scoorge]

interesting suggestion, it would make many ladder games right now very different